Flatlander

As long as no one starts hashtagging #4bisthenew9

No one is arguing that. What we are raising awareness about and calling action against is Petes singular and unwavering resolution to pull tags out for CAPAZ to utilize for fundraising for non-hunter education. No less than 12 other ideas have been proposed by folks outside of CAPAZ, and yet, Pete brought 1 and 1 only to the table at the workshop. Pete is a liar, and we need to standup to him.

Red, please post the proposal where the numbers of tags (or any other black and white info) has been published. I havent seen anything in writing yet, so all we are able to argue is what Pete said less than 1%.

Shane talks more, but Jays microphone is about 100x what Kourys is.

This has been my main contention. I brought this up at the meeting at BassPro that Arizona has a finite resource and can't be compared to other states. How do we add more tags without removing tags from the general pool? If simply adding more tags to the pool, how's it going to affect the harvest objectives outlined by G&F? These "new" tags will HAVE to come out of the general pool if we want to meet the current harvest objectives. It appears SOMEONE within the department is willing to say that one or two tags sprinkled in across a bunch of different hunts would not have a biological effect. We need to make the argument on the grounds that this is an attempt to benefit the wealthy and funnel more opportunity to them. Kurt Davis (commissioner) has already made a point of saying that there will be no impact to the opportunity of the general hunting public if this is employed. He wants to argue semantics so we need to be crystal clear what it is we are opposed to.

Interesting that he regularly rates 3C as a top tier unit but has not hinted the unit since move the rodeo chediski fire. Probably not the guy I would be taking advice from.

Next time you kill something early in the year, throw the carcass in your trash barrel and skip a week of having it emptied. Once it smells like holy death have it emptied. Then the next week switch your barrel with his.

My problem is with the use of tags. Period.

1. Because what was said on the podcast was far far from a written proposal. 2. During the podcast Pete references UT system as a model that can be replicated (as do others). 3. Because what Don Peay and his crowd (which Pete also references as a model) is not what UT ended up with.

Sorry if this is in the regs, I am looking at them on my phone and cant seem to find the answer. Does AZGFD define centerfire rifles as being a min caliber? Or is it simply defined as having a center primer?

Only if you don't tell me what year, make or model it is. Its more exciting that way. As long as you can assure me that it ran 2 years ago when you moved it outside.

What to say only counts if you are wearing the goat.

You are right, the 36A and B hunts are late Nov. That could be a real good option.

+1 Or the 36A/B Jr. hunt, which is an 'any antlered deer' tag. Plenty of road hunting opportunities in 36A & 36B where you could come across either a whitetail or a muley on that hunt. S. that would really be sweet. Unfortunately that hunt is in October so he will probably still be in the hospital. We could try for the late hunt there. The late Kaibab doe hunt might be an option, but the first one is too early for him to have recovered.

antelope dont know what a gazelle is You ever see a antelope buck breed a doe? I dont think you want anything to do with that. Knock the hat right off your head.

If you get that cool decoy hat you will be sure to get a booner!!!! I havent even seen him wear the hat yet and I already have a booner.

arent there a lot of booners killed in unit 10? All Booners I think.

You know how many guys waited a long time for an antelope tag? Almost all of them. You know how many 82 bucks are out there? A lot less than 700 which is about how many tags there are. Enjoy the hunt, forget about the score.

6:30 PM Fine Gun Room @ Bass Pro Shops Please come, listen and most importantly SPEAK UP!

Thanks for the response Mr. Commissioner. Have you received a proposal for the use of raffle or other special tags? It is my personal belief, and admittedly not the viewpoint of all sportsmen, that any special tags separates us further from the ideals of the North American Model that have benefitted wildlife in this country for more than a century. Further, it is also mathematically challenging to see how raffle tags would provide anywhere near the amount of funds required for education of the non-hunting public. If for instance 200 tags were to be assigned to this raffle, and they varied in desirability from premium to average, and if those tags more or less aligned with current seasons then I see the numbers shaking out roughly this way: 500 tickets per application (a limited number of tickets is part of the arrangement I have heard in meetings), at a cost of $5 per ticket, then that only raises $500k. That is only 25% of the cost that CAPAZ has suggested is required for the outreach. Instead the entire amount could be raised via other methods that do not require legislation. We have emailed a copy of this method to all of the commissioners. I am a concerned sportsmen who is here to help and willing to act, but I must express my total opposition to auction or raffle tags. Andrew Gillett No proposal. However, 500,000 would do substantial assistance for education. Earnest people have lots of ideas. The Commission hasn't done anything in my six years to harm the North American Model and I am sure wouldnt now. The current department Conserve and Protect effort is highly effective and it is my hope will grow more robust over time so that the second most urbanized state in the nation has an educated citizenry about the North American model and the power of how conservation is funded. Thx again, Kurt Davis I think every sportsman in the state would agree that educating the non-hunting community is necessary. We are all on the same page for that. However, decreasing opportunity for the general public and re-allocating those tags to be more accessible to those with more means is exactly the opposite of the North American Model. Sportsman need to bear the burden of educating those in our communities, but I feel strongly that tags is not the way to do it. Andrew Gillett I have never heard anyone proposing decreasing opportunities, tags,;etc...ever. kurt Continuation of email conversation: Mr. Davis, I have had the opportunity to meet with Mr. Unmacht twice and Mr. Cimarello once. I have also listened to all of Mr. Cimarello's podcasts with Jay Scott and have discussed the proposal with other members of the CAPAZ board. During these discussions Mr. Cimarello has been very clear that tags would need to be re-allocated from the draw to their raffle/auction system. This devalues every application in the draw and also adds a second tax to those who wish to receive tags that would have otherwise been available via the draw process. In this way their proposed system favors those with more financial means by providing them with more opportunities to receive these tags. Below are citations where you can hear Pete state that their intent is to re-allocate tags from the draw to a secondary system. 23:05 of Jay Scott's first podcast (linked at the beginning of the other long thread). The question is would the new auction and/or raffle tags come out of the existing tags in the regular draw. The short answer from Pete is YES, the Dept would have to pull the tags from the existing allocation so you are going to lose some tags. He says "so they would obviously taken away from the general draw". Thank you for the time and discourse. I look forward to more conversations about how to protect our wildlife and heritage. Andrew Gillett Thx for info. That wouldnt happen with this commission I am sure. Additional tags is a different issue. This issue is not new for commission. Thx for email. Kurt From the exchange above and based on what Bruce has said about the proposal that Pete made to the commission, essentially arguing that no tags would be diverted to this special raffle/auction effort, I am fairly certain that commissioner Davis and Pete are in lockstep. I am also convinced that Pete is a liar. At the Bass Pro Shops Meeting we asked directly if he was planning to present Amy ideas at the commission meeting this month. He said no presentation had been prepared and they werent on the schedule. He knew right then that he would be presenting this idea. He danced around the particulars of the question. We now know what Petes intentions are. We know the enemy, its time to go to war with anyone who is trying to whore out our tag system.

I would think Eurasians qualify as a "target". As long as there is a backstop (like block wall, annoying neighbor's house, neighborhood troublemaker, Prius, tweaker, treehugging lefty, etc.) you should be fine then. Seems to me a dove makes a decent backstop.

Seems easy enough, Shoot the .243 and keep the ranges tight.

There is a nearly identical pair on CL.

When it comes to tripods, weight = stability.

Just a few days late for about 20 cabins.