Outdoor Writer

It's the same as far as the bonus point total, but putting in together still only gives you ONE number in the draw. Either both get permits or both come up empty. Obviously with the second option, you will EACH have a number in the draw, but the probable outcome is only one of you might draw or neither of you will. Getting hits for two low numbers so you both get a permit has terrible odds, especially if you apply for primo units. If you want to hunt together where you both have permits, applying together and going with the outcome will give you the best chance to do so. -TONY

Guess he used the same distribution map you posted. -TONY

It would be good if Jim Heffelfinger gave us some input. I don't have his book yet; if you have it, does it mention anything about the deer distribution in Mexico?? -TONY

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the research. I tend to agree with B&C on it, though. There are just too many other subspecies around that southern section of 8 to conclusively say the ones in Durango or that area are pure Coues. So who actually drew up that distrbution chart? As an interesting aside, there's a guy on another hunting site I visit who claims the Carmen Mt. whitetails in TX are nothing more than Coues deer. He also claims they got there when his dad and uncles transported them from ARIZONA after a trade for TX mule deer. This all supposedly happened during the realm of Roosevelt's Conservation Camps. The deer relocation was allegedly part of it. When I first read his claims, I called Wakeling to see if there are any records of such a trade. He couldn't find anything. -TONY

Amanda, I'm guessing the subspecies I've seen at El Salto are the sinoloae. The lake sits at the northeast corner of 8. That said, IMO, that map has the Coues range extending too far south, which basically encompasses all of the Sierra Madre. But what do I know. -TONY

Enjoy. -TONY

The Coues deer range pretty much ends in southern Sonora. I have seen a couple deer while fishing at El Salto, which is in Sinaloa, about an hour north of Mazatlan. They are small like Coues but a different subspecies. All the ones I saw were does, so I don't know what the antlers look like. They still call them cola blancas, though. Below is a list of most of the subspecis of Odocoileus virginianus . -TONY 38 sub-species Odocoileus virginianus acapulcensis : Acapulco White-tailed Deer, southern Mexico (Caton 1877) . Odocoileus virginianus borealis : Northern Woodland White-tailed Deer, southeastern Canada and northeastern United States (Miller 1900) . Odocoileus virginianus cariacou : Venado Deer, French Guiana and North Brazil (Boddaert 1784) . Odocoileus virginianus carminis : Carmen Mountain White-tailed Deer, northern Mexico (Goldman & Kellog 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus chiriquensis : Chiriqui White-tailed Deer, Panama (J.A. Allen 1910) . Odocoileus virginianus clavium : Florida Key White-tailed Deer, Florida Keys (Barbour & G.M. Allen 1922) . Odocoileus virginianus couesi : Coues White-tailed, Fantail Deer or Arizona White-tailed Deer, Sunta Cruz, Arizona (Coues & Yarrow 1875) . Odocoileus virginianus curassavicus : Venado Deer (8), Curacao Island (Hummelinek 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus dacotensis : Dakota White-tailed Deer, Alberta and northern Dakota (Goldman & Kellog 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus goudotii : Venado Deer (3), Columbia (Andes) and west Venezuela (Gay & Gervais 1846) . Odocoileus virginianus gymnotis : Venado Deer (2), Venezuela and Guianas (Wergmann 1833) . Odocoileus virginianus hiltonensis : Hilton Head Island White-tailed Deer, Hilton Head Island (Goldman & Kellog 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus leucurus : Columbian White-tailed Deer, Oregon and western coastal area (Douglas 1929) . Odocoileus virginianus macrourus : Kansas White-tailed Deer, Kansas and neighboring States (Rafinesque 1817) . Odocoileus virginianus margaritae : Venado Deer (6), Margarita Islands (Osgood 1910) . Odocoileus virginianus mcilhennyi : Avery Island White-tailed Deer, Louisiana (Miller 1928) . Odocoileus virginianus mexicanus : Mexican White-tailed Deer, central Mexico (Gmelin 1788) . Odocoileus virginianus miquihuanensis : Miquihuan White-tailed Deer, central Mexico (Goldman & Kellog 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus nelson : Chiapas White-tailed Deer, southern Mexico and Guatamala (Merriam 1898) . Odocoileus virginianus nigribarbis : Blackbeard Island White-tailed Deer, Blackbeard Island (Goldman & Kellog 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus oaxacensis : Oaxaca White-tailed Deer, southern Mexico (Goldman & Kellog 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus ochrourus : Northwest White-tailed Deer, northwesern United States and Canada (V. Bailey 1932) . Odocoileus virginianus osceola : Florida Coastal White-tailed Deer, northerwestern Florida (Banqs 1896) . Odocoileus virginianus peruvianus : Venado Deer (4), Peru (Gray 1874) . Odocoileus virginianus rothschildi : Coiba Island White-tailed Deer, Coiba Island (Thomas 1902) . Odocoileus virginianus seminolus : Florida White-tailed Deer, Florida (Goldman & Kellog 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus sinaloae : Sinaloa White-tailed Deer, mid-western Mexico (J.A. Allen 1903) . Odocoileus virginianus taurinsulae : Bulls Island White-tailed Deer, Bulls Island (Goldman & Kellog 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus texanus : Texas White-tailed Deer, Texas and adjacent states (Mearns 1898) . Odocoileus virginianus thomasi : Mexican Lowland White-tailed Deer, southeastern Mexico (Merriam 1898) . Odocoileus virginianus toltecus : Rain Forest White-tailed Deer, southern Mexico (Saussure 1860) . Odocoileus virginianus tropicalis : Venado Deer (7), western Columbia (Cabrera 1918) . Odocoileus virginianus truei : Nicaragua White-tailed Deer, Nicaragua and adjacent states (Merriam 1898) . Odocoileus virginianus ustus : Venado Deer (5), Ecuator (Trouessart 1910) . Odocoileus virginianus venatorius : Hunting Island White-tailed Deer, Hunting Island (Goldman & Kellog 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus veraecrucis : Northern Veracruz White-tailed Deer, eastern Mexico (Goldman & Kellog 1940) . Odocoileus virginianus virginianus : Virginia White-tailed Deer, Virginia and adjacent states (Zimmermann 1780) . Odocoileus virginianus yucatanensis : Yacatan White-tailed Deer, Yucatan and Honduras (Hays 1872) .

Well, you won't believe how I came up with 5.2 instead of 5.5 when I did the math in my head. I divided the first part correctly by 2 but when I had the remainder of 10, I divided by 5 instead of 2 again. Thus I wound up with 11/2 and 10/5 to come up with 5.2. -TONY

Were those deer sort of reddish colored? If so, probably brocket deer. There are a BUNCH of deer subspecies as you go south in Mexico into Central America and then to South America. -TONY

Great buck, Dan. It sounds like you might have hunted near where Duwane Adams and I did several years ago. We were actually west of Caborca and could see the Sea of Cortez from the higher hills. -TONY

Noel, I just got my Feb. issue copy of Rocky Mt. Game & Fish magazine that has my Lake Pleasant article in it. They used another pix of you and your monster striper on pg. 18. I'm guessing the magazine should be on the a newsstand near you within the next two weeks. -TONY

Doug, No wonder I always got piss-poor grades in math. Thanks for the correction. -TONY

Nixe pix, Dave. -TONY

To answer the question you actually asked: Yes, the total points are averaged. So you would have 5.2, which is rounded to 5 points. Thus, it gives you that many chances to obtain a low number for the draw. -TONY

Oh, okay. Then it could have been taken any time after your last visit and before your most recent one. I guess I had assumed that you had just killed your other buck there, as well. That said, I sure can't imagine the thief being stupid enough to then put a salt lick close by, knowing you would probably be back to retrieve your stuff and perhaps run into him. -TONY

Here's one taken from the window of our time share in Mazatlan. -TONY

Good point and possible. But if you were him and wanted the camera and stand, would you wait more than two months to go back for them without your pack and rifle?? Why would he wait until after the season when the owner would likely have removed his stuff? Again, your scenario is possible but it makes no sense to me. -TONY

And here I thought only fishermen stretched the truth. For shame. So is anything else you mentioned about this great place to hunt hogs embellished beyond the reality of it?? -TONY

Josh, Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the photo you posted was of a guy that wandered into camera range last Oct., and the camera was stolen just recently, like in the last week or so, right?? If that is the case, I wonder why the guy in the photo didn't steal anything the first time he was there. I guess what I'm saying is you might be pointing the finger at the wrong person, given the situation. It's possible it is the same guy, but IMO, it's unlikely. -TONY

Well, I saw the hog that appears to have been killed the first time by you and the second time by your buddy (see above). If he needed killing twice, he musta been a tough ol' bugger, eh? -TONY

Wow. That is exciting. I will rush over and look at it right away. -TONY

Jesse, Dan (guy in your last listed video) and Atsko have been in the forefront of all this research on deer vision since the late 1980s. Everything he said is right on the money. Because I was skeptical, I spent more than a year researching the subject and was present when they tested the vision of LIVE deer at the Univ. of Georgia's deer research facility. I also attended the Southeast Deer Symposium in Mississippi where two biologists presented their papers on the subject. I penned the first and most definitive article about the subject for OUTDOOR LIFE magazine in the early 1990s. The article and supplemental charts, etc. covered about six pages. Although the original topic concerned deer, MOST non-human mammals are "blind" to blaze orange and nearly all shades of red into the infrared range of the color spectrum. That general statement takes in ungulates, canines and felines. In contrast, all of the above are highly adept at seeing in the lower range of the spectrum, i.e. blues to ultraviolet. This is what originally triggered the research and led to Atsko's products to eliminate UV absorption from clothing and other items. The only creatures you hunt that will see orange are the avian creatures, such as wild turkey, waterfowl and upland game. And they also are very attuned to the UV part of the spectrum. Anyone interested in reading the OL article, can send me a PM here with an email address. -TONY

I see you just joined CWT today. Welcome!! Where is the ranch? You said it is "free-range" hunting. To me that means there are no fences to keep the hogs from wandering around the rest of the state. Is that the case? Or did you mean they aren't in a small pen? Look forward to seeing the photos. -TONY

rockdog, A site trying to sell hunting opportunities should have at least a modicum of information about such opportunities. That one has nada, zero, zilch, nil, nothing. You would think they would at least include some photos of past hunters if they intend to sell hunts. So how's about some photos of that monster boar you shot?? -TONY

Right. I saw that. The web site is still useless. How the heck does an outfit looking to run a money-making venture think that site will help them? -TONY