Outdoor Writer

The only two sides are whether he was 439 yards or less from a dwelling or 441 or more. And all that decides is the LEGALITY of it all. The aesthetics will still stink regardless of any additional information. It's the equivalent of killing a bull on the front lawn of the hotel in Mammoth if hunting was legal in YNP. -TONY

No, that is tiny Donut lake, just off the Continental Divide and miles from Emerald, which isn't too far up and off the Pine River Trail. Funny story coming: The local game warden and I were heading up the Pine R. trail to ride a routine patrol loop and come down the Vallecito Trail, with overnight at Rock lake. It started raining so we donned our long yellow rain slickers. As we got to the bridge where the Emerald L. trail comes in to the Pine R. trail, we met two backpackers. So we stopped to chat a bit. They both had fishing rods sticking out of their packs, so Gene asked them how the fishing had been. They were ecstatic to tell us they had caught a ton of fish and had trout for dinner every night. Sooo..Gene leaned over, stuck out his hand as if to shake and said,"I'm Gene Basset with the Colo. Div. of Wildife. Can I see your fishing licenses please?" Duh! Had he not had on his slicker, they would have seen his CDOW patch on his shirt. Of course, neither of them had licenses, so he cited them and confiscated their fishing tackle with the caveat,"You can pick this stuff up at the CDOW office in Durango when you come in to pay your fines." -TONY

I've had my M70 since 1965, and it still shoots well. But I quit handloading 10 years ago and just pump factory 140 PSPs through it now. I used it on 10 of the 11 critters I killed in Africa, my tahr, stag, ram and chamois in NZ and I lost count of all the NA critters, including my 60" moose, that have succumbed to it. About 15 years ago, I had Robar do some work on it because it looked like heck after carrying it in a saddle scabbard for many years. He put an NP3 satin silver finish on all the metal and then added a McMillan synthetic stock. Just before I went to Africa, I had to replace the original 3-9 Leupold I had bought with the rifle in 1965. Anyway, the reason I asked the question is because I have a LOT of brass, most of which is once-fired that I'll part with for a reasonable price -- once I find it all in the places I have it stashed. This is what it looks like now. -TONY

The only other nauseating smell that came close was when I got sprayed by a skunk that ventured into a cage trap I had set for coons, which had been raiding our dumpster in Colo. -TONY

I owned a resort at Vallecito Lake and guided in the Weminuche for three years for both hunting and fishing. We were a couple miles away from two major trailheads, so I put lots of miles in the wilderness on horseback. The lightning incident happened at about 12,000 feet, not too far from where the photo below of my son and I was taken. Those are a couiple of 14-teeners in the background. Thunderstorms are a regular occurrence there, but it's tough to find a safe place way up above timberline. The only thing to do is get down the slopes away from the highest areas. -TONY

Big, I'm with you. That's why I don't hunt anything over planted baits. I did it a few times in my younger days and decided it's not for me. If someone else enjoys doing it, they can knock themselves out. -TONY

One of the worse things I had to ever do in my life was pack a crew into Colorado's Weminuche Wilderness in 1976 so we could bring out the bodies of two guys who had been killed by a lightning strike while riding along the Continental Divide trail, which follows the -- well, literally the spine of the Continental Divide well above timberline. There were actually four guys riding in single file. The first and second ones in line were each leading two pack animals. The other two were following along on their own mounts. The bolt directly hit the lead rider and pretty much split him and his mount in two. It then passed into the ground where the steel horseshoes of the other horses picked up on it. The second rider also succumbed to the shock and burns he received. All of the horses -- six in all -- associated with these two riders also died. The third rider in the string was knocked unconscious off his horse but survived with minor burns and a big wad of s--t in his pants. His horse wasn't so lucky. The last rider was pretty much unscathed except for a minor burn or two. He rode back to the trailhead to alert authorities -- a trip of about 10 hours from where they were. I gotta tell ya, watching the sheriff's deputies stuff the halves of the first rider in a body bag wasn't a neat scene to watch. And I had to lash them on to the pack horses. The worst part was the stench of burnt flesh. -TONY

Where do guys come up with some of these earth shattering revelations?? They might not "whine," but many vocalize their pain. Ungulates certainly sense pain because they basically have the same central nervious system you do. Ever see a mammalian critter bite at the spot a bullet hits? It doesn't do that because it felt good. Perhaps you're thinking of fish?? -TONY

But that's not what they do. Even the states with the early draws don't hold money for six months. Perhaps there is even something legally involved in doing such, i.e. a STATUTE, only changeable by the legislature, as opposed to a simple rule, which the game department can easily alter. I'll research it when I have time. Of course, they could also make EVERYONE pay the license and tag fees upfront to garner more interest over the short term. -TONY

For those here who weren't around 25 years ago, here's a column I wrote back then that provides some perspective on the auction/raffle permits. -TONY PERMIT PROCEEDS WILL BENEFIT AZ BIGHORNS A few months ago, I received a bulletin from the Arizona Game and Fish Department which stated that the first of two desert bighorn sheep permits had been auctioned to a California resident for an astonishing $64,000. Maybe, this figure is not really "astonishing" to Don Pocapalia of Rancho Palos Verde who won the final bidding, but for me, raising $150 to apply for a normal sheep drawing can sometimes be a chore. Well, this month the second permit donated to the Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society will be given away to the lucky person whose name is drawn from the hundreds of $25 raffle tickets sold. Sale of the chances ended on August 1, and when the final tally is made, the ADBSS hopes to amass between $20,000 to $30,000 more in funds to go into an interest-bearing account along with the earlier auction money. Where is this all going? Quite a while ago, when I first learned of the donation of the two sheep permits to the ADBSS, I was thoroughly incensed by the whole affair. My anger really peaked when I heard about the selling price for that first permit. I simply could not understand why the game department had the right to donate two permits to an organization for the purpose of raising money, especially since my license money has been contributing to sheep research and department salaries for 25 years. And, during those years, I had never been drawn to hunt the desert bighorn. Now, before someone starts shouting "sour grapes", let me say that over the last few months, my feelings toward this practice have mellowed considerably. In fact, I am now totally in favor of and support it. After some investigation, many things surfaced which altered my position. Conversations with personnel at the Game and Fish headquarters explained some of the reasons behind their actions, but the most enlightening facts came through Don Johnson, a past-president of the ADBSS and the current chairman of the committee entrusted with the disposal of the two "fundraising" permits. According to Johnson, this is the best thing to ever happen for the desert bighorn in the state of Arizona. For him to feel that way is quite surprising since he, like myself, has never drawn a sheep permit! Because all of the money spent on wildlife research and habitat improvement in the state comes from department funds and not from any general tax funds, traditionally, money for sheep projects has been hard to raise. However, with the dollars from the two permits, research on the bighorn will be vastly expanded. The desert bighorn has experienced a troubled existence in Arizona since the late 1800's. Miners, prospectors, soldiers and others overhunted the sheep for food and trophies. Because of additional habitat loss, new diseases and the indiscriminate hunting, the bighorns experienced a major decline in their historic ranges. Finally, folks began to realize the need for some protection, and in 1939 the Kofa Game Range and the Cabeza Prieta Wildlife Refuge were established to help save the animals from extinction. In 1958, Game and Fish moved 16 sheep into the Aravaipa Canyon from the Kofa Range, the first transplant management effort. The permit being raffled this month will allow the lucky winner to hunt this area, Unit 31. Although Aravaipa was not opened to hunting until 1980, it has consistently produced record heads including a huge ram taken in 1982 by John Harris. Recognizing the need for additional management of the bighorn, people who were concerned for the animals' long-term welfare organized the Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society in 1967. Over the years, this group has donated many hours and countless dollars, the main ingredients for successful management. Unlike some of the other so-called "wildlife organizations", there are not any "fat-cats" who sit behind a desk reaping a profit at the ADBSS; everyone is strictly a volunteer concerned with the welfare of the sheep. No one draws a salary! This fact is evident in the administration of the two donated permits; all of the costs involved in the auction and raffle are being underwritten by the Society. Not one single dollar of the monies from either will be used for anything but to help the desert bighorn survive. In order to obtain the permits for their endeavor, the ADBSS had to fight an uphill struggle with the Game Commission and the legislature to make the donation possible since it was illegal until new legislation was enacted. "When we first approached the game department, they had mixed emotions. They thought there would be a huge public outcry against such a move", Johnson says. "We finally convinced the department to present our plan to the commission, and they instructed Game and Fish to further investigate the matter from a legal standpoint, the public's opinion and the way other states did it and how it worked." After the matter became public, it was found that the opinions on such a move were favorable leading to the legislation making the donation possible. The bill became law in July 1983 and includes all big game species, not only sheep. These tags will only be issued to incorporated, non-profit, wildlife conservation organizations with the stipulation that ALL of the proceeds be used in Arizona for management of the animal for which the tag is designated. Any group requesting these tags must also agree to underwrite all of the costs involved in their sale and transfer. Of course, there are some people who are still against this fundraising effort, especially in the Tuscon area. These folks are miffed because one of the permits allocated for the Aravaipa Canyon hunt is being used for the raffle. "Some people felt that these permits would magically appear as extra permits. Of course, this is not the case. If the areas involved could support the extra permit, it should have existed last year. If there are two permits in an area, and one of those is allocated to the raffle, that leaves one available for the general drawing," Johnson states. If a person really thought about it, he would realize that without the management efforts, there would not be ANY permits available in Aravaipa. He would also realize because of the extra money and concentrated efforts of the Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society, the Arizona Game and Fish Department and the other government agencies involved, that permits never before possible will be made available for the general drawing in the future. Proper management, needed waterholes, transplants of sheep into historic habitat now devoid of any, will all lead to herd improvement. In fact, many of the biologists involved feel that the population could easily double in no time. If this happens, who knows, maybe both Don Johnson and I may eventually get a permit to hunt the bighorn sheep.

Aah yes, time to blame the "Game departments" again. Hint: It was all of the special interest groups that lobbied and brought raffle/auction tags into being. In AZ, it started decades ago with the AZ Desert Bighorn Sheep Society and mushroomed from there as each new alphabet group came into existence. BTW, the draw for elk, which this topic is about, had a deadline in Feb. this year. The drawing took place in March and permits were mailed in April. Moving the deadline earlier doesn't make any more interest unless they delay the actual drawing for several more months AFTER that. -TONY

I think that's pretty much what I said in my message. We're in agreement. I think BOTH figures should be higher, but the gap between them should also be closer. I certainly do not doubt some guys don't even walk over to see if there's blood/hair if an animal doesn't react to the shot, even though it might be hit. I've watched it happen too many times to know it does. And of course, those wounding stats don't tell us how many survive or die either. -TONY

Okay, here's a bit of an update after I called a contact at AZGF. Now, this is kinda a "take it for what it's worth" stat that comes from the mailed harvest questionaires each year. My guess is the rates are likely higher for BOTH weapon types, but especially firearms, where shots are often WAY TOO LONG for the person pulling the trigger and often result in undetected hits because of the distance involved. In contrast, the short distance for archers makes it pretty easy to know when one wounds a critter. Plus, I guarantee some hunters of both stripes do not report their wounded animals. In 2006, the Wounding loss for elk, as reported on the survey cards was: Archery Bull -- 12% Archery Cow -- 8% Firearms Bull -- 2% Firearms Cow -- 2% -TONY

Not quite. If the property owner gives permission, someone can legally shoot off the back porch, as long as there are no OTHER houses within 1/4 mile of that porch, where the owners HAVEN'T given permission. Pertinent part of A.R.S.17-309 below: Violations; classification A. Unless otherwise prescribed by this title, it is unlawful for a person to: 4. Discharge a firearm while taking wildlife within one-fourth mile of an occupied farmhouse or other residence, cabin, lodge or building without permission of the owner or resident. -TONY

And it's a big block, too! I have seen all sorts of stats thrown around in regards to wounding rates for deer, but haven't seen much on elk. Obviously, a critter that large will often sustain a less-than-perfect hit and survive. BUT...just as often...they might also have enough stamina to run far enough away to elude recovery and then die. One thing to consider, though, and this is just assumption on my part: Many archery elk hunts take place during the rut, while most deer hunts do not. So MAYBE, the average shot at an elk might be shorter due to calling them within a shooter's comfort range. As for personal experience, I shot just over the back on the only bull I actually had a chance to draw on during my only archery elk hunt in Unit 7 in the early 1990s. I had guessed the range at 40 yds. but Corky Richardson, who was next to me, said it was closer to 50. So I held high with my 40-yd. pin and that's where I shot. The stalk leading up to that shot was kinda of funny. In fact, afterward, Corky, my hunting buddy and I couldn't stop laughing. The bull was with a herd of cows and calves in the middle of a big meadow about 200 yards from the woods. So my buddy waited in the trees while Corky and I crawled across the meadow on our bellies to reach the only decent size tree -- a 3-ft. tall pinion. About 1/2 way there, we looked up and saw a cow and calf headed directly toward us. So we buried our faces in the grass and laid perfectly still for what seemed like an eternity. We could literally hear the crunching of their hooves as the two elk passed within a mere few FEET of us. They then walked into the trees, passing within feet of my partner, who had been watching it all unfold. He said if Corky had rolled over he would have been stepped on. And later -- when I returned to the unit to hunt the last day of the season -- I had an even funnier thing happen as a nice 6x6 and I tried to stare each other down for at least a minute at 5 yards apart. And I even had a cigarette in my mouth at the time! I had driven up the night before, parked in an area where I could hunt right there and spent the night under my camper shell. The next morning, I had two cups of coffee from my thermos before it got light, then unpacked my gear and got ready. While I was still standing next to the truck, I let loose with a bugle and got an immediate answer from a bull that probably was less than 1/4 mile away. BUT, the wind was terrible, blowing right from me to where he was. I decided to skirt around and approach him from the side, get close and then cow call. So I detoured to the left about 200 yards and followed the edge of treeline to where I thought I was at least even or slightly behind him. Then I began moving back to the right. I hadn't gone 30 yards and just stepped out from behind a pinion when the bull did the same from the other side of the same tree! At this point, the wind was blowing in my face. The bull stopped dead in his tracks and so did I -- with cigarette dangling from my lips, my bow at my side and every arrow neatly in its place within the bow quiver. There we stood -- staring at each other. Doh!!! Now what?? First thing I did is gently spit the cig to the ground and move my boot on top of it. Next, I started to slowly bring the bow in front of me without raising it so I could maybe get an arrow out of the quiver with my other hand. So far, so good. But just as I finally pulled the nock end of the arrow loose from the rubber dealie, the bull decided to take two steps forward and stop behind another tree. Then as I got the arrow all the way loose and started to put it on the string, he moved again, this time getting more parallel to me. Two more steps, and he now had the wind in HIS favor. His eyes suddenly got really big , his nostrils flared and his neck hair appeared to stand erect. Within a second, he was 100 yds away in the meadow. I cow called and stopped him, though. He looked back at me, and I could swear I saw his head shake like he was saying, "No way, pal. I already know what you are." -TONY -TONY

Steve, Long in the tooth and vintage go well together. I think I was 25 when that photo was taken in 1965. I'll let you do the math. -TONY

Call Duwane at 520-385-4995! He will be happy to talk to you about both services. -TONY P.S. -- he's doing quite a bit of scouting right now in the mornings, so best to get him in the evening.

Steve, You guys should do just fine. But by all mean contact Duwane. He's a straight shooter and knows every nook and cranny on the Kaibab. I hunted 12A almost every year during the 1960s and early 70s. Back then, it was first-come, first served on the permits, with an additional $5 charge and no split between the east and west. Also, permits were for ANY deer. The doe in the 2nd pix is one my son killed there when he was 10. Although I've hunted about every area of the plateau at one time or another, the area just up from the Houserock ranch on the Eastside Game Trail was always my favorite. It's also where I killed my largest Kaibab buck in 1965. Below is a scan of an ol' print from back then. -TONY And..on the wall

Geez, Jim, aren't you the least bit concerned using that stuff?? You probably should have someone watching your back at all times just in case a lovesick bull sneaks up on ya. And...what makes you think I wasn't serious?? That recipe was a hand-me-down from my dear departed uncle from NJ. Right up until he died at 35 from e coli, he swore it worked to perfection. He was the same uncle who invented a homebrew to keep lions away. He tested it on his property in NJ for 10 years and never once had a lion come near his place. Anyway, everything you said is dead-on. Scent control products are pretty much a waste of money, but if it gives a hunter a warm, fuzzy feeling to use them, they should by all means do so. And just as long as they don't breath too much, they might gain an advantage, albeit a very, very teeny one. -TONY

Right on. When the computer spits out the numbers, even a resident with no BPs can get a LOW number, thus giving him a chance for the remaining permits not included in the 20% set aside. The only thing more BPs do is provide more chances for the lowest number that is actually used. -TONY

I did post a message to the SCENT thread in the Bowhunting section for a homebrewed scent eliminator. -TONY

You know you guys can save a LOT of money if you make your own very good "scent shield" products from easily attainable goodies. It's very simple to do, too. Here's how: First, head out to boonies and collect either FRESH -- needs to still be moist -- deer droppings or cow dung. The wetter the better. Also, if you're hunting mule deer, be sure you gather mule deer droppings; same goes for Coues deer. The cow dung origin isn't important, however; it can be from Jerseys, black Angus, etc., but it's best if you get the stuff where the cows are feeding on native growth rather than in a pasture somewhere. A few cupfuls of the stuff with be sufficient for several applications. BUT, IT MUST BE FRESH, otherwise you're wasting your time. You should also refrigerate the unused fresh droppings/dung for later use; it will keep for at least two weeks if you store it in the meat drawer of the fridge where you keep cold cuts. DO NOT FREEZE! Once you have gathered the above, get your home blender out and dump one cupful of either into the bowl. Then add just enough water to cover it. You can always add more water, but the aim is to come up with thick paste that's about the consistency of good spaghetti sauce. Use either the puree or liquefy setting of the blender. Add more water as needed. This will be your concentrate that you will use for several applications. Now, get a five gal. bucket and put the clothes you will hunt with in it. And don't forget your socks! Barely cover with water because the less you use the better the effect when you add the two tbsp. of concentrate. Refrigerate the unmixed paste. Stir the bucket contents thoroughly and let soak a minimum of six hours. The longer the better. When you're ready, hang the clothing outdoors so it can drip dry. You will also want to get a small spray bottle and fill it with some of the bucket contents. This is what you'll carry into the field with you. If you're hunting from a treestand, this step is fairly easy, but if you're doing spot-&-talk, you might have to repeat a few times during the day, depending how much you perspire. When you reach the spot where you have your stand, strip naked and use the spray bottle to throughly soak under your arms, your crotch and especially your smelly feet and butt. This next step is optional but much better than not breathing while sitting your stand. Open the bottle and take a good gulp of the liquid, but DO NOT SWALLOW it because you might get germs. Instead, just carefully gargle it like a mouthwash. You can then either return the unused portion to the bottle or just spit it out. Now, you might think this will taste like $**t and it probably will because it is $**t. Don't let that discourage you, however. Although you can also soak your boots in the bucket, especially if they're waterproof, I suggest just spraying them inside and outside at this point in the scent-proofing operation. Now get dressed and start sitting. NOTE: IF you are a consummate walker, though, you'll probably need to repeat the "get naked and spray" part at least once every hour, especially if you sweat like the proverbial hog. Good luck with your hunting. -TONY

That's certainly a good deal. -TONY

Casey, The Foster buck grossed 204, the Ziser one -- referenced in your message -- was 200 and Honzalek's was 194. The "small" one at the end was in the 160s. Here's a frontal view of Foster's buck, with guides Frank (center) and Al Lopez (right). Note the cheaters coming off both antlers. -TONY

Got it. I'll try to start a bit of a blitz. I think I can get something done with the NSSF, NRA and perhaps some of the newspaper guys around the country. I'm sure I can get something into the Outdoor Wire, as well. Do you have any sort of real press release already written other than the one you posted on OWF? -TONY