Outdoor Writer

Doug, Those figures don't surprise me at all. It seems obvious to me that when hunters know they can easily get a less desireable tag, they will apply for the most desireable hunt as first choce. It's a no-brainer. Any idea how many of the 51% for the late hunts had a less desireable hunt for their other choice(s)?? And...there are probably lots of folks who apply for the Kaibab or Strip as 1st choice and a whitetail hunt as 2nd, 3rd, etc. That was my way until I realized I was eating up my bonus points by applying for Coues and getting it. Now, only two deer choices -- Kaibab and Kaibab -- even though the draw odds are what -- like 3%? Nothing much has changed over the last 45 years since I started hunting in AZ, even when we were handing out almost 100,000 deer tags per year in the early 1980s! Now we have MORE people vying for a 1/3 the number of permits. That means a LOT of people who want to hunt deer aren't getting to hunt deer but would if they have a chance at any permit -- even one of those less desireable hunts. I'm guessing that's why all the leftovers disappear quickly when the first-come sale kicks off. The same occurs with elk on the rut hunts on a smaller scale, of course. In this case, though, the 2nd and 3rd choices on those apps usually go unfulfilled because of so few permits in the "less desireable" elk hunts. Curious, -- I should know this but don't -- how many members in the ADA? -TONY

Amanda, Does ADA know how many deer tags go unsold after the draw and second chance sale? Also, does ADA have any idea of the number of people that apply for the Dec. hunts as first choice and those early "100%" hunts or other "less desirable" ones as 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th choices ? And...does ADA have a total for the folks who apply for a deer tag in AZ and do not draw or get one from the 2nd chance sale but would get one if there were more "less deireable" tags. Lastly, would ADA be in favor of eliminating deer baiting to cut the harvest down in lieu of going to limited archery permits?? -TONY

I hope you're right on the sheep, Mike. I think I have about 16 or 17 points now. Of course, I'd bet a lot of folks applied online before it went belly up, too. If I had applied when I had originally planned to, I would have been in fat city with buffalo, too. As it turned out, the day I decided to apply is when they shut it down. Ron, I thought of buying a sheep point, too, because I might be taking a real 9-5, 40-hr per week job that won't allow me the time to hunt. But this might be the right year for me to draw, as Mike said. -TONY

I'm applying for only deer and sheep. Buying a bonus point for buff because I can't afford the $1000+ for a bull tag right now. Maybe next year, it'll go back online with only the app fee again. The desert sheep and buff are my two remaing critters for the original AZ 10. I have a Gould's from Mexico, so I'll likely never hunt them here. That's likely the same for RM bighorn, though I might at least try --IF I ever draw a desert. -TONY

bobbyo That'll work just fine. As I had said earlier, your mileage will vary, and for the flatter shooting calibers, dead on at 25 is good. That's about what the .264 and .270 charts I posted show with actual zeros between 20 and 30 yds. The two KEY factors are KNOWING the range and where the bullet will hit at that range. And wind drift, which can be substancial at the longer ranges, also plays a BIG part. What weight bullet are you using -- 165? -TONY

The two computer-generated trajectory charts below were set-up for a 300-yd. zero, as Doug had suggested. I pasted the figures out to only 400 yards. The first is for my .264 mag shooting a 140-gr. bullet and the second is for my son's .270 with a 130-gr. bullet. The third column is the impact point. Note the approximate zero distances in the bold numbers. And...another thing worth noting is the similiarity of the .264s ballistics to the .270, albeit with a bullet that is 10 grs. lighter. The energy data isn't very different either. Both have a point-blank range out to about 370 yards with an 11" or so impact area. -TONY .264 -- 140 gr. Range Velocity Impact 0 3030 -1.5 10 3001 -0.8 20 2977 -0.13 30 2954 0.49 40 2931 1.09 50 2908 1.63 60 2885 2.14 70 2862 2.6 80 2840 3.03 90 2817 3.4 100 2795 3.74 110 2772 4.03 120 2750 4.27 130 2728 4.47 140 2706 4.62 150 2685 4.72 160 2663 4.78 170 2641 4.78 180 2620 4.75 190 2599 4.65 200 2577 4.5 210 2556 4.3 220 2535 4.05 230 2514 3.74 240 2493 3.39 250 2473 2.96 260 2452 2.49 270 2432 1.95 280 2411 1.37 290 2391 0.71 300 2371 0 310 2351 -0.78 320 2331 -1.61 330 2311 -2.52 340 2292 -3.48 350 2272 -4.52 360 2253 -5.62 370 2233 -6.79 380 2214 -8.02 390 2195 -9.34 400 2175 -10.72 .270 -- 130 gr. Range Velocity Impact 0 3060 -1.5 10 3029 -0.8 20 3005 -0.15 30 2981 0.48 40 2957 1.05 50 2933 1.6 60 2909 2.09 70 2885 2.56 80 2862 2.97 90 2838 3.35 100 2815 3.68 110 2792 3.97 120 2769 4.21 130 2746 4.41 140 2723 4.57 150 2700 4.66 160 2678 4.73 170 2655 4.73 180 2633 4.69 190 2611 4.59 200 2589 4.45 210 2567 4.25 220 2545 4.01 230 2524 3.7 240 2502 3.35 250 2481 2.93 260 2459 2.47 270 2438 1.93 280 2417 1.35 290 2396 0.71 300 2375 0 310 2354 -0.76 320 2334 -1.6 330 2313 -2.49 340 2293 -3.46 350 2272 -4.48 360 2252 -5.58 370 2232 -6.74 380 2212 -7.97 390 2192 -9.27 400 2172 -10.65

I had seen your chart earlier, which of course wouldn't pertain to every caliber. One thing I didn't mention in my other message: I generally sight 3/4 to 1" high at 25 yds., thus the figures I gave. Doing that gives me a zero farther downrange, as Doug had suggested earlier in this thread. Having and KNOWING your point-blank range almost eliminates the need to hold under or over on larger big-game animals as long as you also know where the vitals are and can shoot accurately. Of course, you also either have to judge ranges well or use a rangefinder in some situations. Lastly, even if you sight at 25 yds., it's always a good idea to then shoot at the longer distances because each rifle and caliber might react differently than what a ballistics chart/program will tell you. -TONY

Bingo! I've sighted my rifles like this for 40-plus years. With a fairly flat-shooting round, you'll be high from 25 out to somewhere between 250 and 300 yards, where the bullet will again be at zero. From there on out it's below line of sight. This will usually provide about 8-10" point blank zone with the bullet hitting anywhere from 4-5" high to 4-5" low from 0 to 375-400 yds. Your mileage will vary depending on the caliber. -TONY

The person who is in the "A" spot (the one whose CC was used for the app fees) will likely be responsible to pay the FULL amount. No total -- no tags. So that person will have to collect all the money and go get a cashier's check or money order. I don't believe G&F will accept cash but they might if one goes to the office in person. -TONY

The government bureacracy, known as PEMEX, is so deep in debt, it can't even refine its own gas. In fact, it ships crude all over to get refined and then brings it back into Mexico for use. Plus, its oil reserves, including the 2nd largest field in the world, are drying up, which translates to a cutback in crude exported to the US. Now, there might be lots of other places in Mexico with huge reserves, BUT...PEMEX can't afford to look for them and refuses to allow private companies to do it either. -TONY

You can buy a digital recorder from about $30 on up to $500! I use an Olympus WS-310 that cost me about $100. It will record up to 138 hrs. Do a Google search and also check out eBay and Amazon.com. Prior to going digital, I used a mini-cassette recorder for years. A recorder makes keeping notes on the details of a hunt or a photo expedition a snap, which is crucial to what I do. -TONY

If you guys buy and carry a small digital recorder in your pocket, you'll save lots of paper and gather many more details of your hunts. It's also great for recording details of a scouting trip, especially if you use the recorder along with a GPS unit. -TONY

Covering several replies here: First, thanks to all. If anyone is ever in the neighborhood of 67th Ave. & Camelback, including you Amanda , feel free to stop by and say hi. My # is in the book! Doug, You're right; lots of memories in that room that go back to the early 1960s when I first began hunting in AZ. In fact, that mulie doe hanging next to the big buck was killed by my now 45-yr. old son on the N. Kaibab when he was 11! There are lots of miles and money represented in those two rooms. Many of the critters I killed in the 60s and early 70s were mounted by Fred Campbell, who had a shop in Avondale. He died quite a few years ago. In the 1980s and 90s, Bob Peers (actually Chris Harlow when he worked for Peers) did most of them, and since then Marc Plunkett at Wildlife Creations has done them. When Marc delivered my red stag a while back, he walked into the new addition and proclaimed it as the Plunkett museum because he had mounted everything in it. He's also doing the tahr, chamois and wallaby. Haywire, Neat fox mount. Coues 'n' Sheep, Nice layout. Love the Dall mount. And to everyone else who posted photos: Some super stuff. Keep after them! -TONY P.S. I went back and edited the message with the pix by adding some descriptive text about some of the critters and where they came from.

The first batch of pix are older ones of my original trophy room. It's a bit rearranged now but pretty much has the same critters. The second batch below the ***s is a new addition I added on to my family room last year to house my African/NZ critters. Still have a tahr, chamois and life-size wallaby at the taxidermist. -TONY Old trophy room: I originally built this one as an indoor spa room and then did all the remodeling work, including building the cabinets and end tables, which are made from 50-yr. old recycled pine paneling from a downtown Phoenix landmark that was razed when Chase Field was built. The chest in a later photo is also something I built. This is through the entry from the living room, which once was a 6'-wide sliding door. AZ blackbear rug on the wall with my grandfather's Parker Bros. 10 ga. Coyote has a Gambel's quail in it's mouth. There are bear skulls, blackbuck horns, a couple small whitetail racks and Mexico Coues deer rack scattered about. The turkey is an eastern from MO, but I didn't do anything with the Merriam's, Rio Grande, Osceola or Gould's that I also killed over the years. On the wall with the tom are a pair of Mearns quail, chukar and flying ringneck. Photo from the entry toward the left. BC blackbear hides hanging in the corner and covering the armchair in lower left corner. A mountain lion hide drapes the chest and a blackbuck hide covers the end table. That's a Russian boar in the upper left next to my best mulie buck, which is hung next to a mulie doe. Antlers on the lamp shade are an SCI book blacktail buck (CA) that wasn't officially entered because I don't do record books. Photo from the entry to the right. 5X6 elk antlers in corner and horns from a Santa Cruz Island Merino ram on the table atop a hairless deer hide. Fish over bear is a 14# brown trout, Alaskan pike upper right is 23 lbs. That's a bobcat rug on the wall and just the very bottom of a BC mountain caribou showing. Photo of wall over the entry. NWT central barren ground 'bou to the left and an AK barren ground in the middle. Lower left are my first Coues deer, a javelina and 3.5# grayling from a river that runs into Great Bear Lake, NWT. Whitetail is from MO, mulie is my first mule deer buck, killed in 1961. BC 60" moose and the nose of a 34# lake trout from the Yukon to the right. The two exotic sheep behind the moose are a Corsican and a black Hawaiian. The antlers below the moose are a small 4x4 mulie. Two AZ 'lopes and a TX whitetail. North Kaibab buck and his mate. Little Coues buck on plaque. Coues deer on left, my first AZ 'lope (1963)in the middle and a Montana 'lope on the right. BC bear, which is now in the new room. African Skulls/horns scattered about are mounted now and hang in the new room, as well. ***** This is the new 14'x32' addition to the old family room to the left. The big archway was originally the rear wall of the house. L to R: Nyala, warthog, black wildebeest, blesbuck, kudu, red stag, gemsbok, impala and blue wildebeest out of the frame to the right. springbok, bushbuck

I'll be roamin' round the show on Sat. too. I'll stop by and say hello. -TONY

Since I DO know the man and have for more than 30 years, I'll clear up some erroneous statements before I leave for Mexico to catch some bass in the morning. Zumbo is a wildlife biologist . In fact, he has two degrees -- one in forestry and another in wildlife management. He worked for the BLM out of Vernal, Utah as a forester and wildlife biologist for 15 years. Long before he got "famous," thus getting all the perks of that status, he paid his own way and SUCCESSFULLY hunted in many places and for many critters on his own. That's how he became a hunting writer. Now I'm outta here until next week sometime. Have a great week. -TONY

Can you say $$$$$$$$$$? Now.... What Jim said and the words he used were wrong! I've corresponded with him this week, and he knows he was wrong in how he expressed his thoughts in calling for a BAN of ARs for hunting because of the image they represent even though they are little different than any semi-auto hunting rifle such as the 7400 Rem. He also now knows he deserved to be called on the carpet for his unfortunate, hasty words, but even after he apologized, he never thought Zumbogate would result in the devastation of his life. He was especially concerned with the zealots who posted personal information such as his phone and address all over the web, considering some of his detractors went so far as to issue death threats. In reality, if we list the negatives and positives that resulted from this sordid affair in two columns, the positive side wouldn't be a very long list. In fact, I can't think of one item to put there. -TONY

Since you asked, here are my thoughts on it, as I posted on two other chat boards yesterday. The one below is from Monster Muleys. -TONY ******** Despite the risk of vilification, I'll repost a message I put on another board a while ago. Ignore the part between the **s since it's an answer to another message about an elk permit Jim received in AZ during and BECAUSE of the USO fiasco. Rather than use it, he ate it and disengaged himself from any dealings with USO. -TONY ** Doc, Great. Glad you found it. Jim told me much the same during an unrelated phone conversation right after he had received the AZ permit.** Jim and I have been good friends ever since we were introduced to each other by a peer in Yellowstone NP. I believe that was in 1975. We're both dagos, the same age, and if I recall we also share the same BD! How time flies when you're getting old. Through the years, we've spent many days together and shared meals and toddies. We've served on the board of directors together of at least two organizations, and most recently Jim, myself and eight others were put in charge to start a new media organization that supported the traditional shooting, hunting, fishing and trapping sports. The 10 of us met in Alabama for three days, and the result was the Professional Outdoor Media Association (POMA) The impetus for this happened because the board of another writers' organization came down on the NRA president for comments he made at a banquet in regards to the Sierra Club. As members of that organization for more than 30 years, both Jim and I were two of the most vehement detractors of that board's action. As a result, 500 or so members followed us as we resigned our long-standing memberships. The NRA, Remington, The Outdoor Channel and many other corporations who supported that group also resigned their affiliations and helped start POMA in 2005. The mission and charter of POMA, which Jim helped craft, read: MISSION STATEMENT The Professional Outdoor Media Association, Inc. is a group of individual communicators and Corporate Partners who believe in, defend, support and promote the heritage of hunting, fishing, shooting and traditional outdoor sports through writing, photography and other means. By doing so, members hope to educate the general public about these sports and encourage more participation in them. The organization serves the membership by helping members grow professionally, improve their skills, better their working environments and enhance their businesses. **** IRREVOCABLE CHARTER In January 2005, at a combined meeting during the Safari Club International (SCI) convention and the Shooting, Hunting, Outdoor Trade (SHOT) show, outdoor communicators elected a steering committee of their peers for the purpose of creating a new national outdoor media organization. The committee met in May 2005 at White Oak Plantation near Tuskegee, Alabama and formed the Professional Outdoor Media Association (POMA). The organization offers a congenial, collegial atmosphere to its members and provides them meaningful services including education in craft, improvement in business practices, tools to enhance efficiency and profits along with extensive networking opportunities. Members are committed to preserving the sanctity of freedom of speech and the right of individuals to keep and bear arms; fostering ethical standards in business dealings, communications and the codes by which they personally abide when afield; maintaining the integrity, understanding and enjoyment of traditional hunting, fishing, trapping and shooting activities. POMA recognizes the important role that industry and members of the conservation community play in the perpetuation of outdoor sports. The organization acknowledges the mutually beneficial relationship individual and Corporate Partners enjoy as members Finally, we honor the memory of the great hunting, fishing, trapping and shooting communicators from the past and pledge to perpetuate the heritage of our profession. **** Unfortunately, in this fiasco, the almighty $$$$ ruled. Sadly, the same folks Jim stood behind decided to make him the sacrificial lamb, or perhaps roadkill would be more apropos. Despite the outcry over the ignorance Jim showed, he ain't the enemy of the 2nd amendment or any other thing that entails shooting, guns and hunting. I no way condone or support what he said. In fact, we have corresponded since this started, so I know what he MEANT to say. Plus, I know the man and his principles. Some here and on the other chat boards could learn a lot from him. No doubt right now Sarah's minions are perusing this and other boards and selecting some of the messages (and boy, are there some doozies from some foul-mouthed slobs), so the REAL enemies can stand up during the debate about the present AR ban bill and read them. Of course, they will probably do so only so they can say, "See what we mean? Are these really the type of people who should own these types of destructive weapons?" Lastly, some think this event will unite ALL gun owners, hunters included. Guess what? I'd bet the divide will widen even more over it. In fact, it's already showing up all over the Web. It's a sad day for all sportsmen when the ruination of the life of a friend of hunters, shooters and ALL FIREARMS OWNERS is applauded with glee and touted as the best thing since the invention of smokeless powder. And don't think the real enemy isn't watching that either and laughing out loud about the cannabilistic "assault rifle nuts." Frankly, I'm rather ashamed by it; no, make that appalled by it. But heck, what do I know. I'm just another know-nothing outdoor writer who has now opened himself up for the same venom and vulgar comments Zumbo received. Have fun, but don't expect me to respond to any of it. -TONY

I don't know much about the West Elk either. I did hunt deer & elk in the national forest adjacent to it about 12 years ago. Didn't see a lot of game but saw enough to pass a on few small bulls and bucks because I was hunting only trophy-class stuff. Given that I'm not familiar with two of the three areas, there's no way I can make any comparisons about the quantity of game for all three. I've also hunted the Selway-Bitterroot in Idaho via Hamilton, MT. It's rugged country, and you won't see near as many people in it as you do in Colorado. But if you like to hunt with a rifle, you can do it there during the elk rut. Not sure about archery tags, but the gun tags are by draw if I recall. I had no problem getting one because I hunted with an outfitter friend there, and they have a set-aside for their clients. Photo below. -TONY

I thought that was still the case with deer tags. If I recall, the entire state went on the draw system for deer in either 2003 or 2004. Now, I'm only guessing here, but I imagine the odds of drawing an archery tag for deer in the Weminuche are pretty darn good. I can't help you on the San Juan at all because I've never been there. I heard it's pretty rugged, though. One thing to keep in mind, however: You will have to decide LONG before you do your scouting if you plan to put in for the drawing. I think the application deadline for limited licenses is sometime in early April! Lastly, I googled the Weminuche book I mentioned above and found a bunch of copies available at various web sites. -TONY

Hmmm, where did you find that the deer licenses are OTC? This from the 2006 regs in the Big game deer section: DEER LICENSES LIMITED All deer licenses are limited, available only by drawing for specific units. Only legal hand-held bows can be used during archery season. Only legal muzzleloading rifles and smoothbore muskets can be used during muzzleloading seasons. 75 Archery Aug.26-Sept.24 Either sex D-E-075-O1-A License valid in units 75, 751 Much of the snow is gone from the lower, south-facing areas by mid-June. BUT...my horse has waded through 2' drifts on the north sides at higher elevations as late as mid-July, and in some places the snow is never gone. But that's generally where no one dares tread. And...if you hike in early, you'll be fording quite a few creeks that are swollen with run-off. That said, unless you're just scouting to find a camp, I wouldn't put too much stock on where you find game in late spring or early summer. The critters move progresively higher as the temps go up and will likely still be at those higher elevations during the archery season unless a sudden, early storm forces them to move down. Some of the biggest bucks I've seen in the Weminuche were hanging out above timberline in August. If you look at a map of the Weminuche trail system, search for the Continental Divide Trail. The photo with me and my son on horseback overlooking Donut Lake was taken about 200 yards from the trail itself. The mountains in the background are a couple "14teeners." The other photo of my buddy with the packhorse is also near the CD trail. It doesn't look much like deer country, but believe me when I say they are there. Of course, it's not a real good place for a bowhunter since it's devoid of trees and has very little cover. Plus, it's a LONG way from the major trailheads I mentioned. A couple other decent areas are along the Rock Lake trail and the Johnson Creek Trail off the Vallecito Trail that goes up to Columbine Pass. Lots of goats up JC, too. I'm not sure if it's still available, but "A Backpacking Guide to The Weminuche Wilderness" by Dennis Gebhardt has excellent maps of the trail system in it. -TONY

If you do the bit with your girlfriend and her son, you might as well forget the part about "scarce hunters." The edges get hammered, especially from the Lemon and Vallecito Lake areas where numerous campgrounds are located. Plus, the Weminuche is pretty rugged country once you get off the main trails. Coupled with the 9,000+ elevations, it can make for tough hiking for folks who aren't accustomed to that altitude. The backpacker situation is more a problem in mid-summer. The crowds pretty much dissipate by late August and early Sept., when the archery season takes place in Unit 751. But even earlier, as you say, it never appears crowded. The backpackers normally stay on the trails and camp in the more popular areas around the various lakes and such. The horse packer option is your best bet. There is at least one based at Vallecito that I know about. They will haul you and all your gear to the spot you pick, then come back and haul you back out. Not sure if it's still the case, but the packer there also used to offer a drop camp option, which saves hauling all your own gear and includes a wood-burning stove and cut wood. The ride into some of the better hunting areas is anywhere from 5-10 hrs. If you walk the same distances, it would take at least twice as long. Also, although the archery elk licenses for that unit are over-the-counter and unlimited, I believe you now have to draw an archery deer tag. Anyway, if you have more questions or need suggestions on where to hunt if you opt to camp within the Weminuche, just holler. Here are some older pix of the Weminuche high country. -TONY

Mattys, I lived on the edge of the Weminuche at Vallecito Lake for 3 years and guided hunters in the wilderness. I know it very well since I've traipsed over about every mile of trail in it on horseback at one time or another. I also guided elk & deer hunters north of Durango in the Hermosa Creek area of the San Juans behind the ski area. I don't know anything about the West Elk, though. If you hunt the wilderness areas, do you plan to pack in and camp, or....? -TONY

Very nice trophy!!! -TONY

Jim, Great bucks and photos. You guys did really good! -TONY