5b had 861 rifle bull tags...

[NMdude]

Now live in NM but I'm a native arizonan. When my bro's in AZ told me how many permits AZ had from archery, muzzle, to rifle, it BLEW my mind... Back when I was kid growing up we archery hunted all the untis around Flag (when bowhunting wasnt hip). What the heck is AZGF doing...? I do know more average joe's are hollering more and more for "opportunity" vs "quality", but this number of permits seems very excessive in my opinion. Starting to hear thru hunt'n circles and family that the elk number and quality there is definately dropping too. Wildlife management isnt complex until wildlife mngmt makes it that way. One bro hunted Flag area last Archery season and said there were hunters everywhere. He left his AZ hunt early in frustration and met up with me on mine in NM (ended up helping me pack/process my bull... ). Utah so far, seems to be doing things fairly right. And, they're now leading each year with the quality bulls. My 2 cents...

I don't know I'd go as far to say Utah is doing it right. Two seasons back I had a muzzleloader tag for Mulies in an area south of Moab. Can't remember the name of the town that was right there. Anyway, one of my buddies knew a family in town, and all they could do was complain that their G&F department was mismanaging things so badly that they were surprised there was anything on the mountain worth shooting. Just going by word of mouth on that, but they were a big hunting family and seemed to know a lot about the issues.

 

Anything one says is arguable, which I respect. But I used "fairly" as a depiction of what UT is doing. UT isnt 100% right... And was specific to elk. I'm sure they have holes in thier management as do all the states. Game dept's tend to look at each other when they incorporate regulations. Mainly, my point was more AZ has gone to be a state of "opportunity" (my definition, it means letting everyone go.... cause they feel "entitled"..). I just pulled up the AZGF numbers for 2012. I randomly looked at one unit in a area in question. 3,150 tags for one unit advertised in draw. Sums it up...

[Webber]

It's all about money more tags more $$$$ there are a lot of good hunter now days also and technology is killing a lot of animal as far as binos & guns, bows need to go quality over quantity I think cut back on all unit in the state deer & elk..

[CEI]

All you can do is write letters, go to the meetings & send emails. Please keep in mind, the Game & Fish gets a lot of rambling complaints or suggestions. Lots of guys get so dang pissed, (my dad) they lose all sense of meaning & many of those comments get overlooked. Keep your stuff brief & explain your position with facts or at least an observation. Also, contact the AES or RMEF & see where they stand on these issues. I know Steve & the gang (AES) usually have an educated response to any issues they see. They even hired a biologist to dispute some of the permit increases!

 

I would encourage any of those whom aren't a member to join the ADA, AES, RMEF or what ever organization you fancy because public access isn't going to get any easier, crowding is going to get worse & tag tees will continue to rise.

[couesbowhunter1]

i had this hunt last year and it was actually kinda sad cause a large herd would run down a canyon and hunters would just wait for them to run by and they would shoot there were 15 to 20 guys withing a 800 yard canyon and we saw 4 cows get shot and killed on this hunt so we called game and fish and told em.

[savagman]

I agree, way too many tags being handed out. At this point we know the elk are heading down the same path as the muledeer.

 

Meanwhile the G&F will brag about the great job they are doing, and how the elk numbers are better than ever.

 

I watch 3 units on a regular basis for over 30 years now.....the numbers of elk are way down.

 

Hello all,

 

I hunted 5B in 2010 during the late rifle season and was fortunate to shoot a nice bull. There were 750 tags for that hunt and I saw two hunters in the field during my hunt. I know where a ton of 5B hunters camp and hunt from prior experiences. I went to where I thought the hunters wouldn't go and the bulls would be. I either guessed right or got lucky or both.

 

My take on the high tag numbers.

G&F may have a right to brag as to the management of the herd-elk numbers are down as reflected in the 2010 survey data. I believe that has been a stated goal. We are in drought and have all seen the availability of water and feed change with the wet and dry years. My understanding is that the purpose of the high number of tags is to reduce the size of the herd and take pressure off of available resources. I would rather have a smaller healthy herd and a healthy forest to sustain them. The alternative is a larger herd that damages the forest and is thinned by disease, starvation and greater predation due to their poor condition. These animals in poor condition also have less success calving. Bulls that have inaqaquate nutrition also do not grow the racks coveted by hunters. Elk/Rancher and Elk/Farmer conflicts increase and become more problematic. I believe it is prudent to allow harvest of these animals rather than see them waste away. When weather and forest conditions permit the herd will rebound. The boom in elk numbers between 1980 and 2000 was largely due to above average rainfall. My opinion on rainfall and elk numbers is formed using Flagstaff as an example per NAU's information http://www.mpcer.nau.edu/files/flagstaff_climate_history.pdf and G&F historical survey data http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/h_f/HuntAZ_2011.pdf.

 

I am a hunter, not a biologist or affiliated with any Fish or Wildlife agency. I have read some and formed opinions that I believe are well formed using the facts available. One study that I found especially interesting is the Walnut Canyon Enclosure http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/research_fire_predation_mule.shtml. It might debunk my percipitation theory but it also supports my next statement.

 

Perhaps predators and drought is a double whammy? The ban on trapping might also be a factor in higher predator numbers and increased predation? The coyotes surely have hit the antelope hard.

 

I will surely be excited if I am drawn, disappointed if I fail to kill and elk but will hunt hard and enjoy every minute of it.

 

If I don't get drawn I vow to get out to my favorite elk grounds and hunt predators hard.

 

Just my opinion and some facts - I would enjoy reading other opions with supporting facts.

 

Eric

[Alpinebullwinkle]

Unfortunately I have to agree with most of above comments for Unit 27 which I have lived in for almost 40 years. The elk hunting experience is now about 50% what it was in 1999. Root causes for the decline in the herd are 1) wolf reintroduction, 2) excessive cow hunting (especially in August when they are with newborns) and to a limited extent less rainfall. I have a friend that owns 50 acres at Beaverhead and a few years ago had 46 calves come to his pond each evening within a herd of about 80 elk. Each nite the wolves forced the herd out into the pond taking refuge. By that September there were only 6 of the 46 calves coming into his pond. He witnessed many of the kills from his porch. Simply discraceful that AGF would allow this devastation to our elk herd but most of us realize it is all about managing money first .....and then wildlife. I am afraid it is too late for the trend of the significant herd reduction to be reversed in my lifetime.