The statement of a lifetime

[HEADACHE]

I had always heard that G&F decides how many tags are allowed based upon what numbers the winter ranges will support (Food and water)

They estimate numbers to be taken out during fall so as to not overwhelm the food sources of the winter range.

 

but ?????????

 

In my humble opinion however, there are more and more elk every year and they are pushing the muleys out and their numbers down. Soon we will have small pockets of mule deer and lots and lots of elk. . .

 

Hmm elk tags cost more. . . . hmmmm

[dave]

O.K., I will cut the sarcasm and just state some facts as they were presented.

Elk numbers were reported to be around 35,000 in the early 90’s.

The model the Game & Fish is supposed to support is 25,000.

It was reported last April at the hunt set meeting that elk numbers were around 17,000.

Question: Do elk and mule deer eat the same food given that there is food available?

Mule deer in southern Arizona do not compete with elk.

What is wrong with this picture?

What is being done to correct it?

[bowsniper]

Deer and elk do not really compete for food sources. The biggest food competitior to the elk is the public land COW! Think how many more elk Arizona could sustain if we got rid of the cattle on public land!

 

 

Mark

[monstercoues]

Wow Scotty boy,

 

U sure openned a a can of worms over all of this stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

I found this quote very intersting.....it's from Jim's new book Deer of the Southwest

 

"An increasingly intersted public was growing discontented over the inflexibility of regulations that were at that time [and still today] governed by the legislature. As was see in state after state, wildlife management canno operate properly in the political arena. These groups [game protective associations.....us hunters....the ADA, etc] and began to lobby hard for the seperation of wildlife managment and politics, and the made some remarkable headway in early wildlife conservation in the Southwest"

 

Now I'm not trying to start a battle here (which I probably will), but this sounds like the present day AZGFD.....commision member appointed by the govenor.....to pursue their interests.....not those of us who actually care to protect and conserve wildlife.

 

From what I'm told (and I could be completely off base here), permit numbers this year were not based on what game wardens and biologist recommended but on politics. I suppose the QUANTITY....I mean lining corrupt agency pockets is more important than QUALITY AND CONSERVATION.

 

This is just my 2 cents but that the way I see it!

 

I would like to thank our legislature and appointed officials for their great efforts! SARCASM AT IT'S PEAK!!!!

 

Scott

[coues7]

Wow Scotty boy,

 

U sure openned a a can of worms over all of this stuff.

 

 

Not really......even though everyone is talking about the number of permits available, my original reason for posting this statement was to point out the fact that government and wildlife management should be seperate just like church (religion) and government. Anymore this does not seem to be the case. We have people on the commision board that have been appointed by the Governor and can thus pursue her interests and not those that may be best for OUR wildlife.

 

I hope I do open a big old can of worms......and THANKS for everyone opinions......for and against the AZGFD. I hope we actually get them (the AZGFD) to listen.

 

Scott

[DesertBull]

We have always had commissioners appointed by the Gov. That's how they become commissioners. We need to elect a different Governor.

[coues7]

I think we just need a change in the system.....as Heffelfingers quote says government (other than law enforcement) cannot be mixed with game mangagment.

 

Take that however you want

[coueshunter]

I think all of us hunters/outdoorspeople are pretty much in agreement that when "politics" is involved in wildlife management, something bad happens to both the wildlife and us. Generally it would be great to not have politics involved, but the fact of this world is that there are so many competing interests that we as hunters will need to involve more "politicians/lobbyists" in our camp or we will continue to lose out on opportunity and quality. I dislike the "politics" but understand if we dont involve conservation groups that have strong "political" foundations, we will eventually lose out to special interest groups like PETA..........Our game managers are under great pressures to "increase opportunity" which means increasing revenues (at the expense of wildlife) our commissioners are under great pressure to institute "landowner tags" which is bad for wildlife and the hunters, and our Governor is always looking for a way to increase "popularity" which increases voter base, so she has gone with the decisions that best support her and her campaign future. I agree with Desertbull, we needed to change our Governor. Since this cant happen, we need to align ourselves with a group that has political clout to ensure that our wildlife is managed correctly and our hunting future is enhanced.........Allen........

[mattys281]

Any suggestions on a group? I've heard of a couple of mule deer preservation groups & of course the Rocky Mountain Elk foundation, but don't know specifically where they stand on hunting or how active they are in Az. It seems to me like a top item on the agenda should be trying to stop the development of our state, or at least slow it down. Case in point, unit 19A. Those antelope didn't stand a chance against the builders.

[coues7]

The ADA I belive is our best bet. We definitely need to do something. Of all the government agencies I do believe the AZGFD does make a good effort to let the public know about meeting where our input is wanted (if there is such a thing). I also agree about the Game Wardens being under tremendous pressure to do and follow others political agendas......which is sad a heck. The bottom line (due to politics) is $$$.....which as we all knows gets things done for the wrong reasons.

 

 

When it comes to state land you might be pleasantly surprised that it is rather difficult to develope it.

 

I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO REQUEST THAT JIM HEFFELFINGER (DEERNUT) HIMSELF JUMP IN HERE AND FILL US ALL IN. I don't mean this in a bad way either.....he is an actual insider who should know how the system works VERY well.

[DesertBull]

When it comes to state land you might be pleasantly surprised that it is rather difficult to develope it.

 

 

Yes, you are correct, but if you have noticed the developers are trying hard to change that. Every election, they put up ballot initiatives to ease the restrictions. They usually disguise it as a "help conserve nature" law, when in actuality it is nothing more that a land swap or power shift that will result in more golf coarses and tract homes and the public is left with 10,000 acres of waterless creosote flats in exchange.

[mattys281]

Okay, I'll probably need my dunce cap after this, but I'm drawing a blank. What is the ADA?

I was on the Mule Deer Foundation's website earlier. They seem like a good organization & have three local chapters in Az. Here's a quote about their goals as stated on their "about us" page:

 

"MDF's goals center on restoring, improving and protecting mule deer habitat, which result in self-sustaining, healthy, free-ranging, and huntable mule deer populations. MDF achieves its goals through partnering with state and federal wildlife agencies, conservation groups, businesses and individuals to fund and implement habitat enhancement projects on both public and private lands. MDF projects are reviewed and recommended by state-based Technical Advisory Committees (TAC), which consist of representatives from state and federal natural resource agencies, university wildlife management departments, and the MDF state chair (volunteer position) and regional director."

 

I've got the phone number for their co-chair person in the Mesa chapter & am planning to call later this evening. Only questions I have for him so far are:

1.) Is their politcal presence in this state proactive or reactive?

2.) What current projects are they working on in Az?

 

If anyone else wants to add to the list, I'll check again before I leave at 4:30 & let you all know what he says tomorrow.

I particularly like the part about "free-ranging, and huntable mule deer populations." Sounds like a nice vision to me.

[coues7]

Okay, I'll probably need my dunce cap after this, but I'm drawing a blank. What is the ADA?

 

 

Arizona Deer Association www.azdeer.org

 

scott

[mattys281]

I figured it was deer association, but didn't know if it was American, Az, or whatever. Thanks.

[coueshunter]

I personally believe that belonging to an AZ organization is the key. MDF, RMEF, SFW, SCI, NRA etc are all great, but for local issues, many times these more "national" organizations seem to bow to their own political pressures and dont step in when needed. I am not saying all the time, but during the USO fiasco it was real evident that most of the national organizations didnt want to upset the apple cart so they stayed pretty quiet. I would look into ADA or AZ elk foundation and volunteer to help out. Many people just send their 25.00 in as annual dues but dont realize that volunteers to sit on committees and go to functions are much more important than the 25.00.........many many guys/gals who volunteer and sit on these boards get burned out and replacements are very welcomed...........Allen Taylor......