81% of Antelope tags go to NR....

[TLH]

Jason,

 

The lady i know lost her husband and her son and now is raising her grandson--she has very few cattle on the ranch and the money she needs to keep things running comes from the L/O tags. She leases her land to other ranchers but she doesn't make a lot of money.

 

 

Your proposal is good but you will have to figure out a way to make it worth the ranchers time. Right now the ranchers will rotate their cattle to different pastures but they still keep water in their stock tanks--this is a benefit to the wildlife. How much money do you think ranchers make each year off of tags?? How much money do you think outfitters make off of L/O tags?? You will have to find a way to appease the ranchers and pay them what they are making now before they listen to any thing you have to propose--i do not think the open gate policy will get the money that the ranchers make now.

 

I do not make my living guiding but i do make some money so my loss will be a lot less than some other guides who do that for a living--and, i stay pretty busy in AZ as it is so not driving 9 hours to guide someone wouldn't break my heart.

 

 

So, how much money does this open gate policy generate for the ranchers--i can tell you that money is the driver so if it is more than the L/O tags you might have a chance.

[SunDevil]

how much money do they get from the open gate program? that is exactly my question. do they get a check once a month/year from the state or do they have to submit invoices for reimbursement on expenses they had that were related to wildlife habitat?

 

once you know how much money you are talking for the average rancher on both sides of the equation you will know if it is equal or not.

[jamaro]

I have a call right now into the Open Gate people to get some numbers... I hope it will not be that big of a deal... I know that ranchers get anywhere from $500 - $2000 for each tag but it depends on alot of factors... The ranchers would not have to participate that is there call, we have quite a few ranches that don't participate in the current system. With my proposal they won't have to worry about outfitters not paying or wondering if they will be able to get rid of all there tags at a decent price. Another thing is that not all LO have enough property to warrant a tag, but say that 3 smaller LO grouped there property together they might get 1 tag. Then the Dept of G&F can give them all a third of he money that would be given.

 

You are right, the Open Gate program would need to be competitive but at least hunters would have a chance of getting a tag.

 

As far as them maintaining water sources, that isn't a big deal because they distribution of tags would be based on biology NOT history or politics. If they don't have antelope they don't get monies from the Open Gate program..

 

Keep the ideas coming guys, we need to think of all angles on this one before we come up with a proposal.

 

 

Jason

[TLH]

The ranches we hunt on sell their tags for a whole lot more than what you posted Jason--some as high as $4500.00 and people are standing in line to hunt those ranches. This is the problem you will encounter when you try to sell the program.

 

I will be interested to see how you do--and i really hope you make a good point as it seems like you are passionate about your battle--Good Luck!

[fatfootdoc]

J-,

If I worked in a gas station I would have charged you 1500 as well!! ag

[Brush Buster]

Jason, I truley understand your concerns and see where you are coming from and respect your desire to improve hunting oppurtunity for the NM residents. Luckily out west there is millions of acres for the public to recreate on so we should consider ourselves lucky and spend our time on keeping those lands free and improved. If we don't eventually we will lose those lands to hunting. Then all hunitng if any will become a true richmans sport on private reserves or ranches much like other counties such as South Africa, and even our southern neighbor Old Mexico. How many avaerage residents get to "legally" hunt in thoses countries?

 

I do agree with some of your thoughts. You are right, there is a lot of public land that is not being rifle hunted for antelope because the ranchers do not sign up. I think that is wrong! Why should the rancher controll antelope hunting on legally accessable public land? I agree not fair. I think it should be just like the Archery antelope hunt, if you draw you can hunt any accessable public land in the unit. That being said, the Dept should probably create antelope sub units so that certain area's in a unit don't get shot out. If they did this hundreads of tags would be created for the public in which 78% would go to residents. Hunters could then plan their hunt better, scout longer, arrange for better camping or lodging. This way the hunter will have an idea of what to expect come hunting season instead of being assigend to some private ranch somwhere in a random lottery process and only given 2 days to scout.

 

I don't think the open gate thing will ever work for big game hunting. Maybe waterfowl, small game, and varmit hunters. Maybe for the smaller peices of private that provide access to larger areas of public. In these cases it might work but not in a big way. The funding needed is not there for big game or big ranches.

 

One other HUGE factor is the liablity issue. As you know there are so many stupid lawsuites these days. If someone was to get hurt, or damadge their vehicle or somthing they could sue the landowner for some sort of neggliance. This happens all the time even when someone illegally tresspasses. Wavors are not worth the paper they are written on and insurance is very costly. Currently the ranchers can choose who they allow to hunt their private ground, make you feel a lot more comfortable about who you let in.

 

The fact is most ranchers don't want the public on there private property just as you would not want the public in your "private" house. As you know there is a lot of whack jobs out there. I hunt public land a little and I know I don't want my ranch looking like some of the public land does. Shot up fences, water tanks, windmills, coke and bear cans littered all over, rutted out roads, shot gun shells all over. A selcet few will always mess things up for the rest of us.

 

As far letting coyote hunters in to help controll the population, that is a whole differnt topic. Let me first say that I have a lot of respect for preadators, coyotes really help controll the rabbit and rodent population and they are more important than most people think. I really don't mind coyotes. However they will kill a lot of healthy little fawns both deer and pronghorn during the fawning season. For this reason I think it is good to manage them during this time of year. On occasion they will kill baby calves (cattle) during the year round calving season luckily over the years we have had very very few problems with coyote depredation on cattle.

 

We primarily like to target coyotes in July and Augsut which is this part of the states fawning season for deer and pronghorn. We have found that yes you can temporially reduce the coyote popualtion say during the winter months, but by the time fawning season rolls around the population is right back up due to new coyotes moving in. Although not sporting, arial hunts and the use of m44's (explosive poisen devices) are very productive to bring down the populaion for short periods of time. The government trapper is involded on these deals but the there are fees involed. I think the helicopter is like $400.00 an hour now. Killing 40-60 coyotes a day is not unreal with the chopper. The m44's are safer than traps, cheap per coyote killed, and require little maintance. So these methods are way more prodcuive than the sport of calling, which is a ton of fun.

 

Anyway, that is my 2 cents probably not worth much but I thought I would speak for myself as a NM rancher. We do need to all stick together as ranchers and sportmen to fight the real threat to our traditions and way of life. Hope everyone get drawns and kills some nice stuff this year!

[jamaro]

You shouldn't be concerned about Liability... I pulled this from the Open Gate LO Participation Guide...

 

Liability Protection – Landowners who run or participate in for-profit outfitting or

guiding operations on their property are liable for accidents that may occur on their

property. However, landowners participating in the Open Gate Program are covered

under the terms of state statute, Section 17-4-17 NMSA 1978, which provides a liability

shield to landowners who allow public recreation on their property without additional

charges.

 

You say ranchers can choose who hunts there ranch. If I were to draw a tag on you ranch, I don't think you could control my access, I know that ranchers have tried to pigeon hole bucks for private land tag holders and IMO that is wrong ...

 

I think you were there at the meeting last week and as you heard Pat say 60%-70% of the animals are on private land, so even if they did open up some of the public land I don't think there would be hundreds of extra tags.. Pat said, "maybe 40"

 

As far as have a strange in my house... I understand were you are coming from but, I don't have state property in my house that should be accessible to everybody and I am not making a profit off of that state property. If I did then we would have to work something out.

 

We all agree that this is not an easy issue but 61% is just wrong.

 

J-

[Brush Buster]

You shouldn't be concerned about Liability... I pulled this from the Open Gate LO Participation Guide...

 

Liability Protection – Landowners who run or participate in for-profit outfitting or

guiding operations on their property are liable for accidents that may occur on their

property. However, landowners participating in the Open Gate Program are covered

under the terms of state statute, Section 17-4-17 NMSA 1978, which provides a liability

shield to landowners who allow public recreation on their property without additional

charges.

 

You say ranchers can choose who hunts there ranch. If I were to draw a tag on you ranch, I don't think you could control my access, I know that ranchers have tried to pigeon hole bucks for private land tag holders and IMO that is wrong ...

 

I think you were there at the meeting last week and as you heard Pat say 60%-70% of the animals are on private land, so even if they did open up some of the public land I don't think there would be hundreds of extra tags.. Pat said, "maybe 40"

 

As far as have a strange in my house... I understand were you are coming from but, I don't have state property in my house that should be accessible to everybody and I am not making a profit off of that state property. If I did then we would have to work something out.

 

We all agree that this is not an easy issue but 61% is just wrong.

 

J-

 

Wow, that is intresting about the Liabilitie coveradge with the state. That is a good step if they want this to work better. I did not know about that.

 

If us NM residents want to create more tags for ourselves, the Open Gate thing is not what we should spend your time pushing. It will never work well enough to suite the players invloved.

 

Enough funding is not availble to compensate landowners for their time, and trouble the program will create. Even if they quit the A Pluss Program I think most landowners would just quit the antelope hunts and keep the gates locked, they won't get paid enough to make it worthwhile.

 

-Outfitters won't like it because they won't be able to market organized, guarantee tag hunts

 

-Dept won't like it because they will loose huge amounts of $ from nonresident lisense sales vs. resindent sales

 

-nonresidnet antelope hunters won't like it because they will have to draw a tag instead of spending cash and buying a permit

 

-A lot of residents will still be disapointed with their hunt, becuase they will proabably still be assigned to hunt particular ranches

 

-non hunting bussiness such as motels, resteraunts, stores ect. Won't like it because they will lose that seasonal income in which nonresidents spend a lot of $ at

 

I think we should spend our time working for somthing that would get support from all of the players and actually pass. The open gate thing won't do that.

 

This is why I think they should seperate public from private land hunts.

 

-Landowners will like it because they won't be required to let public hunters hunt thier deeded ground

 

-Outfitters will like it because they won't have to try to aviod the public hunter or woory about him finding the buck they have been watching for years

 

-Do it yourself Non residents will like it becuase they too will get a small increase in tags and be able to hunt areas they know from previos year or help from other via internet like this fourm

 

- Guided nonresidents will still be able to purchase tags from landowners and bypass the draw system

 

- Dept. will still get the needed non resident tag funding to pay for the antelope management

 

- NM residents will get an increase in tags (maybe not as much as we hoped but still an increase) the hunt quality will be much better for the do it yourself hunter because we won't be assigned to a ranch in a strange place and only given two days to scout.

 

From what I am getting this is the diriction the dept is going, just a little differnt options for each qurter of the state.

 

Don't you think that sounds more realistic of passing and providing all the players with some new benifets to the system?

[NOFX]

Brush Buster, I am from AZ and I dont hunt antelope. I think that you have posted a very strong argument for your right to LO tags. However, upsetting outfitters who dont want residents to find their bucks is not IMO a very good argument. I could care less, those bucks belong to no-one person. And the point that nonresidents would have to draw a tag? Boo-hoo cares.

 

Stick with your strong points as a LO, you have a good argument.

[jamaro]

BB

You listed 10 things... and 9 are why NR and LO would like the system... and the one that is for residents doesn't quite work because we still have a limited resource.

 

I don't know what direction the Dept is going and I may get totally shot out of the water, NM Sportsman need to speak up and say something.

 

61%... Really think about that, what if this was oil reserves and 61% of our oil went out of state.... What if this was public water rights??? It isn't any different...

 

J-

[SunDevil]

one of the points made was LO allowing people to hunt their 'deeded land'

 

does NM have the same 'land lock' problem that AZ does where there is a lot of public land that is not accessable because the land owners do not allow access through their deeded land to the public land?

 

if so, what good does it do to offer tags on public land that the public can't get to?

[hunter4life]

SunDevil, Yes, NM does have lots of public land that is surrounded by private land and is not legally accessible except by permission from the landowner or chartering a helicopter and then waiting the requisite time before being allowed to hunt after the flight.

 

I don't think that the Open Gate program will ever pay landowners a comparable amount to what they make from selling tags under the current system. If the Open Gate program did pay that much then that money has to come from somewhere and it would most likely come from all of us who buy hunting licenses in NM. Then we would all be paying more to still have very low drawing odds for an antelope tag and when we drew that tag we would be stuck on the legally accessible public land crowded with all of the other resident hunters.

 

I think that the current system is the best compromise and I don't think it should be changed. The vast amount of inaccessible public land "islands" is one of the main reasons that I think the current system is better than going to resident tags being good on all public lands and not assigned to ranches. I believe that the current system is responsible for the excellent antelope hunting we have in this state because the landowners currently have a good incentive ($$$ from LO tags) to manage their land for antelope as well as livestock.

[crazyaboutcoues]

As far as i'm concerned if I owned 70,000 acres or 70 acres of land I would not want the public to have any access to my land unless it is supervised by someone from my ranch. It is easy to tell/ask ranchers to open up the land that thier family worked for, but if it was your land would you let the "public" in? I honestly doubt it.

 

Is it about money? heck yes!!! But that's the way it is. If you want to hunt private land fork over the cash or ask the rancher if you could help working the cattle or build fence or casterate the new bulls, something so he will give you access. If you can't afford it or not willing to work for it, shut up and hunt the millions of acres that NM has for public hunting.