HuntHike61

Dunno about relative quality of decades old brass construction versus new, but the reusability is all about inspection of the brass. Hotly loaded rounds can ruin even new brass (back then, and today), and over worked brass can be a problem as well. Light loads with proper resizing- the brass could last 10 times over easy. Tumble the brass, and inspect it for separation, hot loads (via primer inspection), dents and splits. Not sure if this is what you were looking for or not...

I've been planning to take a trip up there myself after reading about the old stone fences, which ALSO are hard to find on google earth. Now have two reasons!

When I come to this site, I look at the recent/new posts window. They are 90% someone wanting to buy or sell something. No problem with people doing that, but I'm more interested in seeing hunting topics. Can I filter those out so the new post window does not include them?

Thanks! Great hunt last year with my son in Wyoming. I hunted that unit when I was a kid and was thrilled to go back....

I've read on this forum and others that the reason the AZ G&F cannot charge credit cards in advance for hunting permits is an AZ banking law. Not sure if a lawsuit occurred or simply a government assessment of the law that resulted in the process we are forced to live with. Personally, I'd like to at least have the option to pay up front (others may hate lending their money for a few weeks). Regardless- does anyone know specifically what law it is, or even better someone at the G&F who is knowledgeable on the subject?

Just sharing what the nice gentlemen from the G&F shared with me. To be VERY clear- they would not be taking away the current option of just providing the app fee, and then charging later for the tags if drawn. That would remain an option in any case, thus there would be no impact to those liking it the way it is. They are only considering to ADD an option for those who don't want the uncertainty of the second charge. And again, nothing guaranteed- they are simply considering options...

Agreed- thus the "option" to do it, or the second CC to reduce the angst seem like good options...

After a few pings to AZ G&F, I got a response on what the reason is for the two-stage credit card process. The person I talked was a very nice guy, very helpful and seemed to be "in charge" of that process. It's not a surety bond or anything like that. It's as simple as many folks complained about paying all the money up front. He also stated they were aware of the consternation of hunters on the other side of the argument (please charge up front folks, like me). Although nothing is guaranteed at this point, they were looking at the option of letting hunters provide two credit cards, primary and back-up. I suggested they simply allow an option to pay upfront, and they could even charge a small fee to cover any administrative costs. He liked that and said they would consider it as well. I was sure pleased they got back with me!

Applications now being accepted...

Since you brought it up- has there every been a government sanctioned removal of burros in AZ (lethal or non)?

I'm sure folks did that. But oh man, if the only way to get folks to be "considerate" is a government mandate, I'll suffer through the lack thereof. With that said- people are extreme on both ends of it. If a business says "no shirt, no shoes, no service"- I comply. Same with masks. However, I don't wear one on the hiking trail when passing somebody is a 10 second adventure. Folks who scream "your killing me" when they see someone without a mask are just as nuts and folks who scream "I don't have to wear one" when a business requires it. I just wish people would chill a bit, make some reasonable decisions, and not get all weirded out when someone has a slightly different take on things.

I'm sure I'm missing something (esp being a newbie and all)- but wouldn't it be easier to simply ignore new posters vs setting some rules? Seems like administrative burden to deal with something common sense can solve.

You're welcome...

On the topic of guides who would like to see trail cams reduced: 1) I really have a hard time buying that guides think DIY hunters are on equal ground with the cams. I'm guessing the average DIY hunter might have a few cameras, maybe borrows a couple more, and with the limited time they have might check them a couple times. It just doesn't hold water when compared to what the guides run. 2) I was actually hoping that there were guides who felt the technology was changing what guides traditionally were good at- knowing the country, knowing the habits, spending time in the hills, focusing on areas they chose, and being incredible hunters. Thought maybe some guides felt the cam technology was moving the trade from all that, to one of manpower checking cameras. I get that is a simplification and there are a 100 variations of the theme. But you have to admit that much more effort today is focused on the cameras, and that MUST reduce focus on other elements of the trade. It might also bring folks into the business with less traditional knowledge and more technology knowledge and thus the older school guides might be opposed. I'm no guide of course- was just surmising what some might believe.

BTW- in case it was misinterpreted, by unicorns I meant the other side of the debate. Lots of rationale going on

With all that has been said, I find one thing interesting. You have DIY hunters who are on both sides of the issue, but seemingly leaning for more game camera restrictions (not a scientific poll, but appearance). The folks who appear to be involved in the guiding service seem to all lean or are full tilt against restrictions. I would love to hear some rationale debate between guides on opposite sides. I might be looking for unicorns tho....

Results Posted...

4 elk- yahoo!!!!

Desertguide- Ya, the rules would be hard to enforce. But that doesn't necessarily make them ineffective. Take a speed limit. No way cops can keep 1000s of motorists from going 75 in a 65. They just pick on the 85ers. What is does do is bring the overall rate of speed down. I guarantee the average speed on a highway is relative to the max speed limit. Same thing here. Sure, lots of folks will break the rules. But I'll bet the number of game cameras go down in high pressure areas. I gotta assume that law-abiding guides would hesitate to break the rules as well. All said, it's not a crisis, but I'm kinda leaning with the slow it down approach.

I think you are right TylerD. Likely not correct. So I just am asking G&F to explain why they chose the process. Hopefully will get an answer by 2022...

But then again, I'm no lawyer or credit expert

From what I gather, neither the G&F or the credit service organization is too interested in obtaining a surety bond to cover the huge amount of refunded cc transactions.

After being slapped with some more knowledge, it appears this is the law that causes the situation in AZ: 44-1703. Credit services organizations; prohibited activities A credit services organization and its salespersons, agents and representatives who sell or attempt to sell the services of a credit services organization shall not do any of the following: 1. Charge or receive monies or other valuable consideration before full and complete performance of the services the credit services organization has agreed to perform for or on behalf of the buyer, unless the credit services organization, in conformity with section 44-1708, has obtained a surety bond issued by a surety company authorized to do business in this state. If a credit services organization is in compliance with this paragraph, the salesperson, agents and representatives who sell the services of the organization are not required to obtain the surety bond provided for in section 44-1708

Another forum just posted to me that it's the Trade and Commerce clause (Title 44) that has some provision that states goods or services must be related to cc charges. However, they have not been able to point to a specific law. Not that my ignorant legal opinion matters, but it seems there are multiple effective ways to provide the service that many hunters would appreciate. 1)- offer a check up-front approach (and charge a fee if it costs more to process), 2)- state the full cost of the tag is not actually for a tag, but for the lottery position- or some such legalese garbage, 3) build in a 7 to 10 day period after the computerized draw to complete the cc purchase transaction- I gather Texas does something like that, or 4) just change the law to allow for this specific exemption. I'm sure there are others...

I've packed elk out whole quarters or boned out on back for up to 4 miles. Hurts on a young man, deadly on an old dude. I've also used a game cart to assist part way where there was a decent trail or closed road available. Snow can also be a big help if you are down hill and can drag or sled. Most of my elk have been in Wyoming where the temperature is less of an issue. Late hunts in AZ usually the same. Many AZ hunt units allow vehicle access of some sort "off road" solely for the purpose of retrieving an elk. Here is a pic of my son soooo pleased to be packing