.270 Report post Posted March 5, 2009 this is just plum stupid. i'm not a big fan of the proposed jaguar recovery effort, mainly because there have never been very many here anyway and Az. ain't wild enough for them to ever establish a real population of em anymore. simply too much development and too much private land in southeast Az. for it to happen. don't get me wrong, they are one cool animal. but i really don't believe there have ever been more than transients in Az. they're a tropical animal that thrive in the jungle and wet country, like belize and honduras and the country where central and south America come together. if there were very many of em, my grandad and his brother would have caught more than they did too. i read the other day that they knew of 6 of em in Az. in the past 30 years or so. i would have figured there were more than that, but that's the numbers they used. anyway, i can see it as just a way for huggers to control more and cause even more people hardship. but then again, maybe it will help with controlling the illegal alien problem in the area that the jags seem to like. who knows? but for the guys who are supposedly so concerned with the jags to contribute directly to killing one of em, well, it just seems stupid and very irresponsible. i can't think of a more stressfull situation to put an animal in, especially a big mean animal like a jag, than a snare. how long was this ol' guy in it before he was drugged and collared? just seems like a real sad ending to a pretty neat animal. so now i guess we're down to 5 jags. i hope like heck they don't cure the rest of em to death. Lark. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/200...jaguar0304.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elkaholic Report post Posted March 5, 2009 hello - not to take sides - - jags life expectaancy -14-18 depends where you look - 16 is old! didn't say the last time this cat was captured- how many traps did he avoid in his younger yrs. - just because some article speculates on the reasons , dosen't convince me! stressed out - not likely- did you see Amandas footage of the snared lion - It was just his time - I'd rather see him live his last moments in freedom but hey ! did the drugs cause or enhance the aging cats problems - maybe !? I can see where not losing such a rare animal is important for both causes - nature and study ! - Gary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GameHauler Report post Posted March 5, 2009 Lark, I am also surprised at your post. You know as well as the rest of use they would not do anything to harm him. He was caught in a snare set for lions and Bear. It was a fluke and they had no choice but to tranquilize him to release him. And why would they not put a collar on? What a great opportunity. As Gary said he was near the end as it was and maybe yes the tranguilizer may have had made it a little quicker. He had to be released. I have a lot of respect for most of your ideas and posts but just can not agree with this one Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
25-06 Report post Posted March 5, 2009 Lark, I am also surprised at your post. You know as well as the rest of use they would not do anything to harm him. He was caught in a snare set for lions and Bear. It was a fluke and they had no choice but to tranquilize him to release him. And why would they not put a collar on? What a great opportunity. As Gary said he was near the end as it was and maybe yes the tranguilizer may have had made it a little quicker. He had to be released. I have a lot of respect for most of your ideas and posts but just can not agree with this one +1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kilimanjaro Report post Posted March 5, 2009 And I have little respect for most of your ideas and posts and I too have to disagree with your opinion on this one as well.. You know I had to.. It was just TOO easy not to!!!! Its too bad that a S. AZ legend has passed on, but he was old.. better to have him to study than to feed the buzzards and coyotes with.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.270 Report post Posted March 9, 2009 i'd still bet this ol' predator would still be kickin' if they woulda left him alone. i read a deal last week that said their life expectancy was 22 years. do any of you have any experience with snares? just as well use a jaw trap. they are a mean tool. i have a friend who was a canadien game warden/wildlife biologist for years. decades. he retired about 10 years ago or longer. he spend years snaring, netting, tranquilizing and tagging all kindsa animals. most of it on bears. what he called tundra grizzlies and polar bears. spent years thousands of miles from anywhere doing his work. great stories. he said they inadvertantly killed a lotta grizzlies with the drugs they knocked em out with, because they faught it so hard. said the polar bears just laid down and went to sleep. whatever, i just kinda wonder about some of the tactics folks use when they are trying to "save" something. in my opinion, they didn't do this old beast any favors. years ago this whole country was a few towns surrounded by wilderness. now it's a few places that you can still call wilderness surrounded by civilization. there ain't much they can do to "save" jaguars other than screw with folks. the country ain't wild enough anymore. they should invest their efforts into helping them out where they thrive instead of making a mess out of places that have never had very many. might be hard way to look at it, but i don't see any kinda jaguar sanctuary in the U.S. that will be anymore than a hardship for folks that live around it. they are neat animal. if you ever get a chance read dale lee's book, i think it's called "the life of the greatest guide" or read hunter well's book "they call me hunter". you will get spooked just reading about jags. absolutely the meanest critter this country has ever seen. the lees lived in Az. when it was still wild and they loaded up and headed to belize and honduras to hunt jags, because there weren't enough of em even in mexico that they could have any degree of sucess that they could count on. this was over 50 years ago. if there ever was a day of the jag, it's gone. i don't think there were ever more than just a few transients this far north anyway. dang sure never any kinda numbers like lions have. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elkaholic Report post Posted March 9, 2009 hello - googled jaguar life span - 90% say 15-17 - or less in the wild --- 20 - 22 in captivaty - whaat some candaian /biologist did 10-15 yrs ago - doesnt apply now and certainly has nothing to do with comparing cats to bears in reguards to snaring/capturing and releasing animals -- keep trying !! read todays paper ! G$F should be congraulated!! Gary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.270 Report post Posted March 9, 2009 so i guess the stuff i read was wrong. even tho it was writ by some scientist. what the heck do they know? and even tho the guy who did the autopsy on macho said the drugs and stress probably really hurt him, who the heck is he to have an opinion like that? i mean he's just an expert and all. and what sam did does apply and his work is used daily around the world. i don't see how you can trivialize decades of work like that? oh wait, i guess he didn't know what he was doin' either. we can argue lifespan till the hogs come home. if they'da left him alone he'd still be alive. heck, next time anyone sees an old buck or bull they best shoot it because he's close to whatever somebody says his life span is and we don't want any old critters in the way. my only concern is that the usfw will turn the jag into another fiasco like the mexican wolf. you coues hunters had best be aware of it, because guess where the handfull that are left live? right smack in the middle of the sky islands that support the coues. and if they come up with some sorta program, it ain't gonna be friendly to anyone who hunts or lives in those areas. sorta sad too, because like i've always maintained, jaguars are one cool critter. too bad this country isn't more condusive to them so we had a bunch of em. there are definitely fewer of them now than there were, but they require truly wild country, and there ain't any that left here. too many highways and towns. they can set aside some place for em, but i kinda doubt they stay there. RIP Macho. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
