What are your thought on Predator Control?

[IHunt2live]

I'm working on a project looking at predators and their impacts on ecosystem and I was curious what you all think. I want this to remain a light discussion I just want to know what you all think.

What would it entail for a control program to be successful?

What is the most limiting factor for deer if not predators?

[king4wd]

In regards to the second question. I love deer and I love killing coyotes, but the goal should be a stable balance between species. Not specifically wiping out coyotes to have more deer, rather, having a healthy number of predators compared to the deer. Another important thing to consider is the carrying capacity of the particular ecosystem.

[billrquimby]

In regards to the second question. I love deer and I love killing coyotes, but the goal should be a stable balance between species. Not specifically wiping out coyotes to have more deer, rather, having a healthy number of predators compared to the deer. Another important thing to consider is the carrying capacity of the particular ecosystem.

 

Well said!

 

At the beginning of the 20th Century, conservation was viewed as catching poachers, eliminating predators, and establishing game refuges where wildlife could flourish and spread into the surrounding countryside. Protecting and enhancing habitat usually wasn't considered important enough to consider.

 

We've come a long way in the past hundred years, but some of those myths still persist -- especially among hunters.

 

There are valid reasons for attempting to reduce predator numbers, such as to increase fawn survival in a specific area.

 

Unfortunately, the public will no longer tolerate government programs to kill predators.

 

Bill Quimby

 

[audsley]

I really don't know the answer to the first question, but I do believe predators have a very significant impact on deer populations when deer populations are already low. When you have only a few deer to reproduce, each doe and fawn are precious. When the numbers get near carrying capacity it doesn't matter so much.

 

It's true that the public and press will not tolerate govt-sponsored predator reduction control. For that matter, they won't allow govts to kill off ferral horses and burros either. In Australia, the press and animal sentimentalists have been blocking govt efforts to kill off some of the approximately 1 million camels that are roaming the outback and destroying everything. In short, the public does not approve of the govt killing mammals, and efforts to do so are always a rallying (and fundraising) opportunity for ARs and greenies. (Pardon the redundancy.)

 

I don't believe predator hunters have much effect on prevent fawn predation. That's mainly because taking a coyote out of the habitat is like pulling your finger out of a bucket of water and trying to see the hole. Other coyotes will quickly migrate in and re-populate the area. There is a theory that if you whack coyotes hard right before the fawn drop, you might succeed in giving the fawns some relief just long enough that they can become old enough to flee. I believe research has shown this to be true, and it's used as a justification for aerial gunning of coyotes, especially to protect antelope fawns.

 

Ranchers pay the federal government to shoot coyotes right before the calf drop, but unfortunately that's about 2 months ahead of antelope fawn drops and 3 or 4 months ahead of deer births, so it doesn't do us much good. At least the ranchers don't have to announce it publicly in advance and get people stirred up. If only AGFD could operate like that.

 

 

[dogman68]

I think its possible for predators to impact game populations that are already low, but I would rather look at why they are low in the first place. Seldom is there a balance of nature. It is always swinging one way or the other. Like someone likes to often post, "The biggest threat to wildlife is the Arizona game and fish". Its hard to blame predators for everything. Wait till you see the new permit proposals for this coming year. Strictly revenue; has nothing to do with wildlife "management". JMO

[dsturla]

at predators and their impacts on ecosystem and I was curious what you all think.

 

What is the most limiting factor for deer if not predators?

 

Mike, there was a lot of studies done in west texas as far as the extent of the coyotes role in ecosystems. It appears they can be a bit of a keystone predator, but their presence has a much greater impact on small mammals and mesopredators.

heres some lit to get you started, and as far as your 2nd question, i think you will find that precipitation is the ultimate influencing factor in deer #s.

Beasom, S. L. 1974. Relationships between predator removal and white-tailed deer net productivity. Journal of Wildlife Management 38(4): 854-859.Bekoff, M. and Gese, E. M. 2003. Coyote (Canis latrans). Wild Mammals of North America: Biology and Conservation, 2nd edition. John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, Maryland,USA Crooks, K. R. and Soulé, M. E. 1999. Mesopredator release and avifaunal extinctions in a fragmented system. Nature. 400(5): 563-566.Estes, J., Crooks, K., and Holt, R. 2001. Predators, ecological role of. Encyclopedia of biodiversity (4): 857-879.Henke, S. E. and Bryant, F. C. 1999. Effects of coyote removal on the faunal community in western Texas. Journal of Wildlife Management 63(4): 1066-1081.Kamler, J. F., Ballard, W. B., Gilliland, R. L. et al. 2003. Impacts of coyotes on swift fox populations in northwestern Texas. Journal of Wildlife Management 67(2): 317-323.Kamler, J. F., Ballard, W. B., Wallace, M. C. et al. 2007. Dietary overlap of swift foxes and coyotes in northwestern Texas. 158(1): 139-146.Karki, S. M., Gese, E. M., and Klavetter, M. L. 2007. Effects of coyote population reduction on swift fox demographics in southeastern Colorado. Journal of Wildlife Management 71(8): 2707-2718.McCabe, R. A. and Kozicky, E. L. 1972. A position on predator management, Journal of Wildlife Management 36(2): 382-394.Miller, B., Dugelby, B., Foreman, D. et al. 2001. The importance of large carnivores to healthy ecosystems. Endangered Species Update 18(5): 202-211.Mitchell, B. R. Jaeger, M. M. and Barrett, R. H. 2004. Coyote depredation management: current methods and research needs. Wildlife Society Bulletin 32(4): 1209-1218.Sinclair, A. R. E. 2003. Mammal population regulation, keystone processes and ecosystem dynamics. The Royal Society. 358: 1729-1740.

 

[huntingfool]

I saw a show on TV awhile back, about a big high fenced area in southern az. I don't remember the specifics, maybe somebody here does, but the jist of the show was that the only variable controlled in this high fence area was the lack of predators. The deer aren't fed, I don't recall what their water source was but obviously there was one. Anyway without predators the fawn survival rate was like 99% and the herd multiplied like crazy. The conclusion was that predators make a huge difference in fawn survival. My own thoughts are that lions must kill more deer than coyotes, but I'm sure the coyotes do their part too, especially on fawns. But I've seen and heard of coyotes running deer. Especially coues deer, they are so small. They are flat out scared of coyotes. I've seen them running from coyotes several times. Mulies hold their ground a lot better.

[My Rights As An American]

That may be the Three-Bar Wildlife Area outside Roosevelt Lake. I am not the expert on this at all, however, if I remember correctly, they did comparisons to inside the fenced area and outside the area, concluding that the predator depradation was extensive. I also believe that the fence had to be knocked down during the large fire back there a few years ago in order to save the animals stuck inside the area. I am not sure whatever happened consequently.

[regge090]

The predators do have an impact on deer which is why most hunters try to call but they are so educated that its hard to call so we cant keep them under control

[gotcoues]

I've heard about the enclosed area quite a few times and also that yes, there was a very significant difference inside the fence without any predators. Does anyone know how to obtain or watch this show online? I would love to see this show and learn about their studies.

[Coues Archer]

I do believe that predators do have a huge impact on wildlife. Without the predators or just less numbers of them there would be alot more deer.