Randy Ulmer Hunting Accident?

[DEERSLAM]

I too have been watching and not saying much about this topic.

Chute planes used legally are ok for for some of you and unethical for others.

When I start seeing articles, tips, advertisments etc. promoting the use of chute planes as a scouting tool I'll know that we as hunters have gone to far.

 

Also those who use them, R. U., and others, be it the first time or 100th time avoid the topic or don't acknowledge their use of chute planes are obviously not proud of the fact.

[TAM]

I asked this question earlier on this same post and none of the anti chute plane crowd responded. So here it is again.

 

In Arizona it's only legal to use a chute plane for scouting purposes up to 48 hours before the start of the hunting season. There's a bunch of you on here saying that chute planes are unethical even when used inside this law.

 

In Alaska it is perfectly legal to fly over caribou herds, river drainages and other areas scouting for game animals during the hunting season as long as you don't hunt within 24 hours of flying. It is common practice up there to get on a bush plane with tundra tires and have your pilot fly you out in front of the migrating caribou herds so you can hunt them 24 hours later.

 

Why is it that nobody blows the ethics whistle on the rules in Alaska but many choose to whine about using chute planes in Arizona? In fact, I'll bet that most of the anti chute plane advocates on this very thread have no ethical conflicts with hunting caribou in Alaska in the above mentioned fashion. Sounds like a double standard to me????

 

Speak up anti chute plane people.

[jim]

scouting is scouting. Randy Ulmer has earned his rep by doing what it takes after getting within range of his target. I'm sure the ethics police, if really scrutinized would find all their methods do not fit everyone elses either.

[COUESAZ]

Why does Hunting need it's Ulmers And it's Chuck Adams anyways. Up until i saw Randy and a photo posted on this site a few months ago I had no idea who he was. I hunt because I was raised doing it and it is a true Love i have. I get two magazines sent to my house. One is Eastman's because they are a long line of hunters and truly mean good things with there magazine and the other is cabelas because it just comes. Now i had seen Randy ulmers photos in Eastman and thought wow what a great buck. I never fallowed him and made the conection of it being the same guy evry time.

 

I have three hunting heros that i listen to evry word they say. #1 my father, # 2 my uncle Joe, #3 my grandfather that has passed away. Theese are true hunting Heros. They have taken more big bucks in there life than i will probably have the chance to. Yes it was from a time that monster bucks roamed all Arizonas units. It was also a time that they had a Rifle A horse and a few shells in there pocket. They truley went out and hunted for the bucks they took home.

 

If i could become half the hunter those men have been in there life then one day my son will say the same thing about me. I do not care what one hunters methode or etics are as i know mine. Yes i use lots of new technology in my hunting that my dad say's why do you need all that extra weight in your pack for. And my son will use more technology than i use today when he is my age.

 

My point being lets not make the Michale jordan of hunting our main stay in the sport. The sponsors love this because evry one will run out and buy the same toilet paper as Randy Ulmer because it says it on his hunting Coat. This is crazy Hunt the way you hunt because that was the way your Father showed you. Not because a guy that has lots of money and has killed a few big bucks tells you this is the way to hunt.

 

Forget about flying and chute planes. Listen to what Jim (cousefan) has said. The big buck is not worth having to set the season out because you broke a legg in your chute plane. Fly them and use them in the area they were ment to be in and have fun. They were not made for a hunting tool so i will not spend my hard earned dollar on one. I will spend it on a quad and other things that other folks hate though. So my point once again is hunt the way you hunt because it is they way you hunt. Not the way the guy in the magazine hunted.

[DesertBull]

I have a hard time with the comparisons of quads and planes.

 

Quads are limited, legally, to established trails and roads. Yes, people break the rules, I know.

 

Planes have no limitations, in fact they can go into wilderness areas where no vehicles are allowed at all, as long as they do not land.

 

To each his own, but for me the thrill of the hunt is in the chase, not the kill.

[m1280]

Alrighty then! now that we are all ethically (spelling?) correct go out and hang some X-mas lights on the house for your kids!! Happy Holidyays and good luck huntin! I would say Merry Christmas but with all the libs out there this may be ethically incorrect -LOL!!- and we dont need to start another thread now do we! Take care all and be safe -mike-

[mattys281]

I have a hard time with the comparisons of quads and planes.

 

Quads are limited, legally, to established trails and roads. Yes, people break the rules, I know.

 

Planes have no limitations, in fact they can go into wilderness areas where no vehicles are allowed at all, as long as they do not land.

 

To each his own, but for me the thrill of the hunt is in the chase, not the kill.

 

 

The FAA has issued a Notice to Airmen mandating that they maintain a minimum altitude of 2000 ft above the terrain while over designated wilderness area. This applies to all aircraft. This, however, does not apply to remote areas that are not designated as wilderness. If you see someone trimming the trees over a wilderness area, call it in.

 

Tam:

I'm admitedly hypocritical on the general issue of technology in hunting. The gadget craze drives me nuts. I shoot a Mach 12, carbon arrows, fiber-optic sights, mechanical release, etc., etc., but won't touch a drop-away rest because it seems too high-tech for some reason. Like wise, I'll probably buy a laser rangefinder at some point & am going to order a new set of high powered binoculars this month, but you'll never catch me on a quad. The main thing that bothers me is how the airplane thing could be construed by our opponents. Everyone has their own idea about what is sporting & what is not. I personally would not hunt caribou out of plane either. Actually, I won't even hire a guide, unless the law requires it for the area I'm hunting, such as for certain species in Alaska. If I do have to hire one, it'll be semi-guided or a drop camp. I make plenty of money to buy food, which means that I'm hunting for sport. That being the case, to me it just seems more sporting to do it myself and that usually means doing it the hardway. I come home empty handed a lot more than I care to admit, but I'd rather do it that way than to feel like I have to credit someone or something for my victory. I think my main issue with it is that I live in the rat-race five days a week to earn a living, so when I go into the woods for a hike, hunt, backpacking trip, or whatever, I don't want to even remember that those things exist. I'm there to escape the noise, not to bring it with me. Again, though, that's just my opinion.

[DesertBull]

but you'll never catch me on a quad.

 

Would you drive a jeep?

[coues7]

The more this goes on I'm not actually sure how I feel about it

 

I do know one thing for sure.....WE CANNOT ALLOW OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS OR GOVERMENT to be the means of justifying whats ethical or not, whether it be in Alaska or Arizona. We all know that they (goverment officials) don't always and probably rarely do the right thing. So whether it be Alaska or Arizona is it a double standard? YES!

 

And when it comes right down to it...... what is the difference between Alaska and Arizona? Is it the terrain? Is it the vastness of the country? Is it the ruggedness? I doubt there are very few people who actually hunt from a chute plane, a helicopter, an airplane etc......and this is not so much the dicussion of this thread.

 

I believe the real question is: IS IT ETHICAL TO USE A CHUTE PLANE OR OTHER MEANS TO SCOUT FOR BIG GAME?

 

My initial reaction is to say yes......WHY? Because it would be cool to fly around ans find drainages, water sources, country and awesome bucks and other big game that you would have NEVER SEEN before, then go to the general area where they are and harvest a whopper......although we hunt for meat.....we are also hunting for a good size rack. Wouldn't that be awesome? HECK YES

 

NOW HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF EVERYONE (YES EVERYONE....WHICH IS UNREALISTIC) DID THIS?????

 

As a sportsman not only do I like to be able to hunt and fish but I like to be able to see the animals.....do I have feelings and cares about the animals we hunt? YES When I harvest an animal do I get emotional? YES Do I give thanks to my Heavenly Father for allowing me to see and harvest such a majestic creation? YES Does it bring a tear to my eye? VERY OFTEN!!!!! As sportsmen we should not only have concerns about preserving and taking care of these animals but doing what's right to help them.

 

As a human race we are often very very short minded......if we look the small picture it would be cool to use chute planes, helicopter and such to locate game.....this gives us the MAJOR UPPER HAND.....but if we look at the big picture (ie "I want my kids to be able to hunt", "I want to have game available to see when I take my family out", "I want game to be around in general")......this whole thing about locating game using chute planes and helicopters, whether it be in Alaska or Arizona is just plain WRONG!!!!!

 

I don't care what your ethics are......if you look at the big picture and keep our heritage in perspective you CANNOT be in the gray area.....this comes down to black and white.....END OF STORY.

 

Scott

[mattys281]

but you'll never catch me on a quad.

 

Would you drive a jeep?

 

Guilty (a Blazer). And I'm not ripping on quads. I see their value & don't mind other people having them, their just not my thing. I guess I'm into self abuse or something, but I prefer to hoof it. I rush all week long, so when I'm in the woods I like to move at a slower pace.

[mattys281]

As a human race we are often very very short minded......if we look the small picture it would be cool to use chute planes, helicopter and such to locate game.....this gives us the MAJOR UPPER HAND.....but if we look at the big picture (ie "I want my kids to be able to hunt", "I want to have game available to see when I take my family out", "I want game to be around in general")......this whole thing about locating game using chute planes and helicopters, whether it be in Alaska or Arizona is just plain WRONG!!!!!

 

I don't care what your ethics are......if you look at the big picture and keep our heritage in perspective you CANNOT be in the gray area.....this comes down to black and white.....END OF STORY.

 

Scott

 

What worries me is that it's not so unrealistic. 10 years ago people used quads for hunting, but not nearly as many as now. Sometimes something like this catches on & takes off like wild fire. No way to predict if this will, but it could, especially if they're as cheap as a quad and have financing availabe. Then you have they scenario that someone already brought up (don't remember who), where you climb up to your favorite glassing point & after an hour a couple chute planes float up & join you. And you know those guys probably never would have hiked that hill, but it was nothing to fly there!

 

I like Az Guide's point. Who needs Adams or Ulmer. I enjoy reading the stories on here from "the real world" a lot more. Nice to share victories & defeats with people that are in the same boat instead of reading about some guy who spends 40 hrs. per week chasing the big ones. You have to ask yourself, when they go to lengths like this, are they really enjoying it? Or is it just their job now?

[flagcoueskiller]

I have to agree with coues7 here, although it seems you are all spinning your wheels, no pun intended! It comes down to a personal choice on what crosses the line. Personally, I think it stacks the deck in a hunter's favor a little too much for me to want to use it. I think it would be hard for me to admire a huge buck on my wall and recall the time I flew up to where he lived 2 days earlier and knew exactly where to start looking, especially coues deer with their very small homerange. I cannot understand those who keep stating there is a lot more to it than knowing where the deer was 2 days prior. You are masters of the obvious. Of course there's more to it, some of us happen to think you have narrowed your to do list to relocate and shoot! If that's your perogative then go for it. Those of us against the chute planes just think it takes the fun and the challenge away.

 

Joe

[COOSEFAN]

This is crazy........This is a discussion/debate that has no right or wrong answer! This is not a debate of whether or not its legal.........just merely whether you like it or not! I thought I would benefit from it and went full-bore into trianing and buying all the right stuff.........then.....I realized flying was way too risky to do outside of a controlled environment such as a small airport or near my home. I may continue to fly during the summers for fun around the house, but you won't see me swooping through canyons and over mountains up north! My first and only flight in higher elevations involved about an hour of serious panic attacks followed by a good tree trimming and finally sliding to a stop on my knees! It was ugly and I'm not proud of it but I walked away from it knowing I accomplished a goal I had set, and I knew I would rather ride the Rhino around scouting than go on that roller-coaster-ride-in-the-sky ever again! Like I said before, just keep it all into perspective.....if you see someone holding a big monster dream buck, and you know he flew around for a week to find it........be happy for him, he probably worked hard from that point until he killed it.......but if you see someone holding a big dream buck and they didn't fly for it.....I'd go up and shake his hand and congratulate him for doing it the hard way! Like it or not...it's legal, guys are going to do it, it's not for everyone and it will never get as popular as quads or other ATV's. From the outside looking into the sport of PPG's, it is not as easy and free flying as you would think. You won't have guys come flying up to you and landing on some glassing point, you'll never see them flying around all day and they can only fly on perfect weather days. Also, I have never heard of anyone flying to locate Coues deer? Mule deer is probably the most sought after critter with Elk being a close second when it comes to flying. Flying in canyon country is very dangerous and if you do it enough, you will have problems, so I bet Coues deer won't ever have to worry too much about hunters with wings! I also bet that if flying machines become any more "user-friendly" and more people use them.....there will be new laws restricting or prohibiting them. .......and that ther's my 2 cents..........thanks, JIM>

[daverp]

surrounded by a few morons in the air buzzing around in their flying atv.s.

 

Flying ATV's. I like that.

 

Personally, this whole thing really takes the shine off of Mr. Ulmer's image as far as I'm concerned. Legal, sure, but ethical, I personally don't think so. Short of extended time off to scout endlessley, anything that gives someone such a distinct advantage over the average hunter as something like this does, just does not seem right to me. Trust me, I can certainly see the attraction of buzzing around at slow speed just over the tree tops and busting out monster bucks and bulls, but I personally would have a hard time looking myself in the mirror if I were to take a buck or bull with information acquired from this type of "scouting", no matter how difficult the stalk. Like it has been said, it's a lot easier to stay focused and dedicated when you know your monster buck is in the area you're hunting, and know where all of his bedding areas are.

 

I'd be pretty upset myself if I climbed to the top of a small mountain to glass and had some lazy SOB buzzed over the area scaring out all the animals. Now we all know Mr. Ulmer is not lazy, and is about as fit as one man can be and hunts hard as heck, but he's still using the tactic not available to most hunters to greatly increase his odds of success over traditional, hard earned methods. More importantly he's using a method that most hunters would find unethical.

 

At the least, it is very controversial. If it wasn't, he'd be writing articles about it. Bluntly, don't preach to me about the purity of your archery hunting and about getting "back to basics" when you're buzzing your hunting area in an ultralight aircraft!

[COOSEFAN]

That just about sums it up Daverp.

 

Out of fairness to all the other guides out there, I should probably not speak up like I am, but I feel strongly about what I do and how I do it. Last summer I felt I was ready to try and keep up with the competition and felt the pressure to do so. Flying was the ticket and I put my opinions and thoughts about it on the backburner and gave it a try. My main goal was to offer that edge to my clients and to cut down on my scouting bills and equipment wear and tear. Flying will most definitely accomplish all that but the downsides appeared after I had purchased and learned to fly my PPG. The risk involved is not worth it, and the hit to your pride is overwhelming. You can't openly talk about what you are doing, even though it's legal, and the thought that your friends and acquaintances think less of you for doing it makes it even less desirable. We have always taken pride in being successful doing it the hard way even though we may not kill 200" Mulies and 400" bulls every year, we still kill big critters and we can honestly be proud of every one. I won't use my PPG for my business and if I can sell it I will, but if not.....it is fun as heck flying around the desert by my house! I know of a guy who most of you have heard about, who has crashed three times and finally gave it up and now pays guys to fly for him after his last crash because it cost him so much in plastic surgery on the third crash! That's "Crazy" if you ask me. I won't personally bash anyone for using one, it's their own choice but I look at their successes differently than I normally would. Like has been said before...."if you can still look in the mirror and feel good about yourself".......than more power to ya! I just hope we don't hear of any more crashes JIM>