Record Book Withdrawals

[SunDevil]

After reading CHD's post last week about Cal Coziah, I thought immediately of a certain Tucson custom rifle maker. I will refer to him as Mr. Highlife. I wasn't going to post anything about him but then I saw 270's reply that mentioned him and felt I should.

 

I do not know Mr. Highlife personally and am NOT implying that he is a poacher. I am just curious to see what other people (those who know him personally and those who don't) think of him (good or bad), his situation and/or the state of hunting today.

 

Mr. Highlife had numerous Coues deer entered in the B & C Record Book. B & C investigated and challenged him on one of his deer. Unless he could disprove their findings, they were going to remove that one deer from their book. Mr. Highlife chose not to defend himself and opted instead to have all of his deer removed from their book.

 

Please keep in mind that B & C takes these things very seriously. It is my understanding that one of the people they interviewed was a local guide who saw the deer shortly after it was harvested. The guide confirmed that the nontypical point that was now broken off from the rack was in fact intact when he originally saw the deer.

 

It is possible that someone at B & C and/or the guide that was interviewed had a beef with Mr. Highlife but I do not subscribe to conspiracy theories. I lean more to the "where there's smoke there's fire" rule.

 

Unfortunately, a couple years ago and prior to all his deer being removed from the record book, The American Hunter had an article in their magazine proclaiming Mr. Highlife as one of the top Coues deer hunters of all time. I do not know if they had anything in their magazine recounting that article after he withdrew all of his deer from the record book but if they didn't they should have.

 

I have a very close personal friend who hunted with Mr. Highlife a few years ago. He said Mr. Highlife was a terrible shot (despite using a rifle that was supposedly worth several thousand dollars), could not glass up deer on his own and wounded a deer that was never recovered.

 

The fact is that most of Mr. Highlife's deer that were in the record book were from Mexico and several were "pickups" from Mexico. I would guess these deer were more of a "purchase" than a "pickup".

 

Hunting has become a BIG, BIG business and people do funny things for fame and fortune.

 

For good or bad, the media also can not be trusted 100%. Editors and journalists could possibly have their own agendas, which may or may not include rifle, optic, ammo and/or hunting trip kick backs. The days of Jack O'Connor "calling 'em like he saw 'em" regardless of any freebies he may have got are long gone.

 

It also saddens me immensely to know and think of my friend in Alaska who associates Coues deer hunting with Mr. Highlife based on what he has read in the media.

 

As for me, I will continue to work hard at and enjoy my hobby. If and when I harvest a buck that breaks the arbitrary 110 minimum, I may or may not have it entered in a book. The only book I would even consider putting it in though is the AZ book. To me, there is a big difference between working hard at and getting a book deer on public property than paying someone thousands of dollars to get one for you in a foreign country.

 

Also, is there really anything different between a buck that nets 109 and 7/8s and one that nets 110? They are both GREAT trophies and both should be considered such.

 

I have an antelope buck on my wall that scores 79 and 4/8s. Even though he is just short of the book, he is a GREAT trophy, a buck of a lifetime and represents so much more than a number.

 

The value of our trophies should be based on many things, including: 1) all the hard work we put into them. 2) the challenge they represented us. 3) all the enjoyment we received while being a field, including: a) the time well spent with friends and family. the fresh air. c) the stars. d) the exercise. etc. etc.

 

Until next time, scout often, glass hard, shoot straight and eat well. :-)

[coueshunter]

There is a very long post on here about David. The post has the original letter showing what David thinks about B&C as well as the public rebuttal B&C made after Davids letter......you should be able to pull this up somehow here or on Monster Muley's and see what everyone thought of the whole situation.......Allen.....

[Arizona Griz]

SunDevil, two thoughts come to mind. A "Trophy" is in the eye of the beholder and don't blame B & C for how they except entries (I have hunted Mexico without a guide and the only difference there is that there are more quality deer) into the record book. I am an avid believer in all of the record books and they all have good information beyond just the record listings.

[.270]

just because the guy is a bad shot, doesn't make him a bad guy. while i'll admit that there seems to be some substance to b&c's beef, what about all the crap that herb klein pulled? he has more heads than anyone in b&c and is revered as some kind of god with them. and from what i've heard, wasn't much of a sportsman. alaska's strict no fly laws were instituted just to stop him. there is one way to stop a bunch of this record book garbage. don't list the guys name. they are supposed to be a record of the animal, but they aren't. they are a bragging post for the guys that shot em. i got treated real shabby by b&c about 30 years ago. never bothered with em since. the book that the Az. wildlife federation keeps is a worthwhile deal i think. don't have much use for any of the rest of em. i mentioned Kirt Darner in another post. know him fairly well. i did several years of real exhausting research into his deal with b&c and am real confident that he is right and they are wrong. proved it to myself and as far as i'm concerned, i'm the only that counts in my opinions. won't even begin to make any other observations about the guy, but do agree that b&c treated him bad and cost him a fortune. but he still hunts and kills huge bucks. he shot a muley in mexico a few years ago that would be #2 typical in b&c and he now owns a buck that would be #1 typical. bet b&c worries about him trying to enter them. i think it's funny and sorta ironic. but i still maintain, and always will, that if there were no record books, a buncha the crap we see would dissappear. Lark.

[Rembrant]

I understand all that is being written here and my closest friends would agree with you 100% Lark. I will dissagree with one point though: The crap isn't caused by the record book. The crap is generated by our inherent and flawed nature as human beings and the greed, lust and strife that comes with it.

I like the idea of a book with no names in it - just the kills. Because the best part of the book is the information, history and posterity it offers.

Imagine our sport without the book. We would be forced to wonder what magnificant animals were taken through history and we would have no way to find out. I'm glad we have it. I just wish we could grow up enough to handle it.

Mike

[coues addict]

Everyone

I have never even met most all of you but I do feel we have a common bond and that is just the love of hunting. I have never met David or Kurt and I would bet that I especially could learn from them if I payed attention. I have a brother in law that is one of the most humble people that you could ever know. He harvested a huge nontypical coues deer several years ago and never did enter it in B&C. I asked him why one time and his reply was '' The buck grew those antlers not me''. I never forgot that and it made me realize that hunting is different to each person. I really like Lark`s idea of a book with no hunters named so as to honor the animal and not the hunter. Some of the best hunts that I have been on resulted in average animals being harvested, but, to me the hunts were totally awesome for one reason or another. I will not pass judgement about these guys or others because I don`t feel that is my department. My Father taught me to never judge a book by it`s cover and I believe that 100%. My common sense tells me these guys are no different than anybody else and they just love to hunt just like I do. It seems as though they just got caught up in some real crapola, but who knows and I really don`t care anyway. I do like the books for referance only and it is awesome to look at some of the trophies. I still believe that if the animal gets me excited then that is a trophy to me, to heck with the '' gross score''. I hope all of us have a great season in 2004 and good luck to all of you guys and gals. Coues Addict

[Guest Ernesto C]

Very good topic and very interesting points from every body.

 

You know,I have harvested several deer,elk,antelope and javelinas, none of this trophies will make the B&C book (except the javelinas).When I was pulling the triger,when I was taking the pictures,when I was admiring them etc etc,the last thing that came to my mind was the B&C book;but the memories,excitment etc etc that the hunts provided me are worth ...... how much are they worth?? I will not change them for nothing.

 

If one day the Lord wants to bless me with a B&C deer I will take it,I'll take anything from the Lord;some times I have returned home empty handed becuase I was looking for a real big one not a B&C but something big.

 

If a individual has five or ten more deer or ten more B&C entries that some body else that does not mean that he or she is a better hunter than the other,he or she may have more and better posibilityes($$$$) to hunt that the other like going out of country,hire guides,go out to hunt several times a year,several states etc etc.

 

When Im reading B&C books,magazines and books about big bucks,I'm admiring the trophy,and I can remember that trophy for long time but if you ask me who harvested I will not know because I will not remember the name but I'will remeber the trophy.

 

All I know that my trophies look really good on my wall and I just dont care if they made the book or not the emotions and feelings they gave me I will not change them for nothing.I have a 13 point white tail that several people want to buy from me but I will not sale it.

 

I agree with the points that every body here had made,remember some people is more blessed than other,that does not make us better or worst.

 

God bless.

[wetmule]

Interesting and volatile topic,

Not sure where to start. My feelings are that I really like the Record Books B & C and the AZ Trophy book. I think they are a great reference tools and overall very interesting reading if you are a hunter into big animals. The B & C measuring system is the standard by which we all judge and view big game animals and it's fun to learn what critters score and see how proficient and accurate we can become at scoring them. That's where it ends for me. I have one animal entered in B & C and none in the AZ Book. I've been guiding here in AZ and throughout the west for over twenty years and have many clients with Book heads, mostly muleys, in the book. I would personally never enter anything in the books if I was ever fortunate enough to Draw again (another topic) and harvest a great animal, even if it were a world record. Speaking with first hand knowledge, even to those who have done lots of research, there is a very good reason why some people have been removed from the books, not mentioning any names or dissing anyone in particular. If you knew what I know on a couple of individuals, I think you would be disgusted. Those people are no longer in the limelight. And for good reason. I think the large majority of people hunt for the right reasons because they love to get out in the woods with friends and family, enjoy the love of the outdoors , the challenge, the beauty of the country and the animals. For a few they have other motives, to parlay their successes into lucrative sponsorships and commercial success and to see their names in the pages of books and magazines etc. For some it has gone to their heads and they have to continue the lies to keep up their appearance of the reputation they manufactured for themselves. I will continue to read and buy these books for the entertainment and research value and for the fact that more than likely the majority of the entries are legit. Unfortunately I'm sure there are many entries that are not legit and people are entering their heads for all the wrong reasons. Just my thoughts.

Wetmule

[wetmule]

Ernesto,

Great post I like your attitude and views, they are commendable.

Later, Wetmule

[.270]

wetmule, one of your statements is what erks me about books all together. you said that guys names had been removed for good reasons. that's the thing that i hate. the guys names. that's what the books are all about. if all the record books said, ok, no more hunters names, nobody would enter anything. leave the animal there. it's the one that grew the antlers that are supposedly so revered. but no, when they remove a guys name, they also remove the animal's score. and i still say if b&c had any morals, they'd remove everything that herb klein and a few others have in their book. record books ain't a bad thing. it's good to have a record, i guess. but why can't a guy just admire a buck for what it is. there always has to be a score connected to it, so guys can say their's is bigger. the b&c book is full of bogus stuff. what was the world record typical was shot out of season for meat. the famous plute bull was shot for meat to be sold. but i agree with putting them in the book. the animal didn't do anything wrong. and for the times, neither did the hunter. if it happened now, they'd be crucified. books are ok, there is just too much emphasis by folks to get their name in it. and when a guy does get something extrordinary, they're scrutinized to the point of insanity. there has been so much fraud in the books, that nobody believes anyone. when allen ellsworth had the new world record elk dropped in his lap, he got called thief, liar, etc. by everyone from the azgfd to the tribes. he was eventually able to prove it out, but it was a lot of work. if for some reason i shot a new world record elk or muley, i'd get it scored officially and then sell it to the highest bidder. get rid of the headache right off. take the money and hunt till it was gone. because to me the hunt is what it's all about. being in the country with a tag in my pocket. anymore, i don't really care what i shoot. won't shoot a spike, but if it's got a fork, he might be in trouble. just depends on the situation. deer that is. elk is a different story. hunt as hard as ya can, for the experience of the hunt. watch the bird and chipmunks and pigs and skunks and whatever else a guy might see, and if ya get that chance, shoot a buck too. Lark.

[wetmule]

270.

I agree with most of what you said. I too believe the animal should get the credit. Just like when Secretariat or Smarty Jones wins the Kentucy Derby the horse should get the Prize. Or when someone wins a gold medal in the Olympics in Jumping or Dressage, I think the horse should get the gold medal. The reality is that there was someone who trained those horses, rode them and guided them through their respective courses. The same is true for Hunting and the taking of a record class animal. The person that took that animal got himself in shape (in some cases), spent the time scouting in the field, spent countless hours locating that animal and put him or herself in position to harvest that animal through a lot of hard work. Of course there is alot of luck involved including getting the permit, but there is alot of luck involved in just about everything where someone is successful. It's good to be lucky sometimes. I think you are right when you say that if B & C just entered the animal and it's score and not the person, there would'nt be a B & C record book and no one would enter their animals. I'm not sticking up for B & C but I think they handle those situations where someone is removed from their book as best they can. If someone kills a book deer that was later determined to not be taken legally or was determined to be taken by another hunter, what are their options other than to remove it all together, especially if they can't determine who the actual hunter was. Yes the animal looses out and doesn't get credit for the headgear he grew and it sucks for him. There is that human element that they incorporated into their system since their inception, that the hunter gets credit as well as the animal. I'm sure their feelings were, back in the day, that most hunters are legal and ethical and follow the game laws and the rules of their sport. Unfortunately for some in this day and age their egos get the best of them and they try to abuse and use the system for their own agendas and their own advantage. Those that have been caught have been removed. And yes for good reason. I think we have to take it for face value that most in their books have hunted legally, ethically and morally following the rules of fair chase, until proven otherwise. Are there probably a fair share of entries in their books that are not legit, yea, I'm sure there are. I'm also sure that the majority of the entries are legit. As I said earlier, that book or any other record book is not for me and I would never enter anything were I fortunate enough to take a great animal. I do enjoy reading them though. Unfortunately a few bad apples have spoiled it at least for me. Wetmule

[.270]

i never turn down a chance to thumb through one either. i like the pictures. i've only had 2 dealings with b&c. one directly and another sorta indirectly, because i wanted to prove something to myself. both were real negative. i shot a bear in the mid 70's that smashed the world record. had to use a grizzly form on the rug, because nobody made a form big enough. would still be over an inch bigger than even the big pickup in the book. do ya see mine in the book? nope. why, you ask? good question. never got a good answer. only thing i know is that the guy that measured it told me i wasn't a dr. or a senator or some other important person. he later quit being a scorer, in disgust over the incident. i also think i was blackballed by a jealous game warden. but whatever. it's a big ol' blackie and i know i got it in fairchase. didn't even have hounds. the other was the Kirt Darner deal. the more i dug into that, the more it disgusted me. the stories and absolute lies that have been told about the guy over the buck in question are putrid. he has photos of the deer, affidavits from folks that saw the deer and the rack was carbon 14 dated. all backed up him. i mean carbon 14 now. that's a pretty definitive test. but the one that cinched it for me was that the last guy who is listed as the owner of the deer in question is a guy i know well. i talked to him about it. he said that the mount fell off the wall and broke the skull cap and that it had been repaired with fiberglass. Kirt's buck ain't got any repairs. they also tossed out a desert bighorn he got because of a clerical error by the azgfd and a coues deer that they said was a texas whitetail. just to sorta back up their efforts, it looked to me. anyway, it doesn't make a hill o' beans now and Kirt has went on and still contiues to shoot the biggest bucks on the planet. the only thing the B&c had was the word of a convicted child molester and some 40 year old photos that showed the antlers on the wrong side of the head. said the negative got switched. could be. and the score sheets don't even add up. Kirt's is wider and has more scorable points. do ya think his rack coulda grew over the 40 years they said it was since the rack was taken? or is this an admission by b&c that they don't do a real good job in scoring? that's the only way they can use the score sheets for evidence. anyway, the way i look at it is, if there is one little bit of phony info in something, then the whole thing is bogus. b&c books are full of phony crap. stuff with a lot of baggage tied to it. stuff that is flat wrong and fraud and other crap. therefore, in my way o' lookin' at things, the whole book is bogus. but i still like to look at em. and i got no problem with folks that enter stuff in it. it just ain't for me and i don't hold a lot by it and don't believe in b&c or there so called ethics one bit. as far as i'm concerened, their entire little club is phony and bogus and has no merit. rules have to apply to everyone. one of the most magnificent coues bucks i ever saw wouldn't make the book as a typical or non-typical. and it is absolutely huge. a good friend took a typical muley on the kaibab that is just enourmous. for years it didn't make the book because of a 5th point on one side. years later he had it rescored and the point that kept it out of the book was scored as the typical point instead of the nontypical point, as it should have been, and now it's #2 in Az. pretty big switch, to go from not making the book to #2, just because the guy that scored it the first time was a dummy. i know it's their club and they make the rules, but i've seen em hurt some guys with their rules and it's pretty apparent that they've helped some guys too. i just feel folks should hunt for the whole experience and not get hung up so much on records and trophies and put so much empasis and trust in them. Lark.

[wetmule]

Lark,

Sounds like a heck of a big bear you took back in the day. Too bad about your dealings with B & C regarding the ol' boy. Like I said I enjoy reading their books and lookin at the pics, but that's about it for me. Seems odd you have to pay them to get in their book in order to get your animal recognized. They also several years ago,lowered their minimum scores on many of North Americas big game animals, most likely for monetary gain. A 230 Non-typ muley is still a monster buck but it's not a 240, and a 190 typical is also a fantastic buck but not a 195. I think they did it to keep their business going, knowing they would have a huge influx of entries and recognized a financial windfall and took advantage of it. They also started their awards program with yet lower minimum scores recognizing the animal for the awards program but not the all time book. They charge money to get into all their programs, I wonder if their minimums will continue to go south.

We hunt if and when we ever get drawn because we love to get out with friends and family enjoy the outdoors,the country, the wildlife, the challenge and to recharge our batteries. Anyways, good luck if you pulled any permits this fall and happy hunting.

Wetmule

[.270]

i was quite young when the bear deal took place and i just sorta thought "who cares?". i was more interested in hunting. but after seeing some of the stuff they've done with no explanation, it makes me sorta think that for whatever reason they were singling me out for some kind of unwritten punishment. another deal i remember is that the pronghorn that was the world record for years had altered horns. the taxidermist had added a little bit of paper meche' to the bases of the horns so they stuck up a little higher. a real common practice, still. anyway, the buck was killed and mounted before there ever was a record book, so that wasn't why it was done. and with the added horn removed, it would have still been the world record, but they tossed it anyway. it had been recognized as the record for decades. could never figure that one out. whenever i hear of anyone being questioned by the b&c, i always take the position that the b&c is up to no good, again. and i get tired of folks acting like they're some sort of legal authority. if the rule of law was applied, they'd lose a lot. all they have to do is cast a shadow on someone and they're automatically a bad guy. and i can't see why you would take points away for being too big. which is what happens to a lot of racks that aren't real even or don't have a good "typical" score. oh well, 'bout wore this subject out. it's just a real sore spot with me. good luck to all this fall. hunt hard and hunt often. Lark.

[Arizona Griz]

.270 and Wetmule, I have read your posts and a lot of what you have said is absolutely true. The record books (all of them) are only as good as the information that is provided. As long as human beings are involved there are going to be mistakes, egos, jealously, you name it. I guess I am kind of naive. I would like to think that all the records with their information are indeed correct and all of the animals were harvested legally. I am sure some of them are not but that will not change my belief in the record books.

 

.270, if you did indeed get the short end of the stick with regard to the bear, why don't you have it looked at again? Maybe the measurer had it in for you. Who knows, but I would think it would be worthwhile looking in to it.

 

One thing that really bothers me though is a hunter who doesn't care about the record books but will use in the same sentance "I saw a 350 bull". How can you differientiate between the two?

 

I am a measurer for both the "Bowhunting in Arizona" and "Pope & Young" record books and am an avid believer in both programs. It costs lots of money to run the programs, producing the record books, putting on banquets, holding measurer seminars, providing trophy plaques and various other items. Both programs are non-profit and operate on the sales of the books and entry fees.

 

The record books also provide a lot of valuable information besides the animal records.

 

This is my own personal opinion.

 

Good luck on everybody's hunts.