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.270 vs .308


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#1 prowlerMan

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Hi guys,
I am new to long range shooting and want some opinions on calibers that I could use to shoot out to 1000 yards. Currently I am shooting a 30-06 with a 150 grain bullet confidently out to 600 yards but feel like the round is falling out of the sky at that distance. I will be using whatever i decide to go with for deer hunting and target practice only so I have been looking at the .270 and .308 calibers. I decided to stay away from the .300s due to recoil and cost of ammo. It seems to me that the .308 would be a good all around caliber to go with based on its popularity with the military? I know there is alot of knowledge on this website and would apreciate any feed back on the subject! Thankyou in advance!
Kyle
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#2 firstcoueswas80

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New to long range hunting, and your looking straight into diving to the 1,000 yard line?! And you want to stay away from cost of ammo? NORMALLY speaking, if your shooting A. A cheap rifle and B. Factory ammo you SHOULD NOT be shooting much over 300 yards.

A little birdy (owner of a very well constructed ammo manufacturing company) told me that tolerances for MOST factory ammo is 10%. So each shot could have a 10% difference in muzzle velocity, trajectory etc.

What Im getting at is if ammo price is a huge concern your obvioulsy not reloading, and (in my opnion) shouldnt be shooting long rage AT GAME. Just my thoughts though.
"don't get hung up on scores. get hung up on hunting." Lark

#3 prowlerMan

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Sorry i forgot to mention that i was wanting to practice and work my way up to shooting at ranges that far. I just want some advice in order to point me in the right direction so i am capable of making a shot like that one day.
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#4 firstcoueswas80

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Get the right caliber for the job.... 257 wby,264 win mag,270 wsm, 7 rem mag, 300 win mag/wby magy/ ultra mag etc.... And shoot handloaded, tuned to your gun loads. Put $1000 worth of glass on top etc.
"don't get hung up on scores. get hung up on hunting." Lark

#5 Str8Shot

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Get the right caliber for the job.... 257 wby,264 win mag,270 wsm, 7 rem mag, 300 win mag/wby magy/ ultra mag etc.... And shoot handloaded, tuned to your gun loads. Put $1000 worth of glass on top etc.


Firstcoues is right. All of those calibers can become efficient long range hunting rifles with a combination of good hand loads and good optics. The main thing with long range hunting is obtaining the Highest velocity with the Highest BC(ballistic coefficient) and that is only usually achieved by Handloading or paying top dollar for custom loads. Higher BC usually means heavier bullets, in comparison to lower BC bullets in the same caliber the higher BC bullet may be traveling a little slower at 1000 yards but it will retain much more energy and be less effected by wind. No matter what caliber you choose you will need $$$$ and lots of rounds and practice to build up an effective long range hunting rifle.

p.s. By learning to hand-load the cost of ammunition will be significantly reduced and should not be an issue. I shoot a .300 RUM and spend 1/5 the cost per round over factory loads. 100 rounds for dang close (give or take a few bucks) to the cost of 20.
And Shepherds we shall be
For thee, my Lord, for thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand
Our feet may swiftly carry out Thy commands.
So we shall flow a river forth to Thee
And teeming with souls shall it ever be.

In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti.

#6 elkaholic

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I gotta ask if this is for hunting or just makin the metal clang!-

where's Mark at - he's the .308 guy - 125coues give us some insight(lol) to long range .308

it's not just the caliper or the high dollar scope as much as the gun itself !!



when ya get out to 1000 yrds the difference in ft lbs bewteen the 300 338 and the 308 are less than 200 anyway-- (edit meant 400 but my mistake) sorry my reply in next post

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#7 308Nut

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If you think the 30-06 seems like it is falling out of the sky.......The 308 is nearly the same and in most cases a bit worse. Who really cares? With the availability of good laser range finders trajectory is of very little if any concern at all.

The 308 is a GREAT 1000 yard rifle. That said, it is NOT a great 1000 yard hunting rifle unless you are talking small game. If you want good long barrel life, an unbelievable plethora of brass types, bullet selection, powder selection etc....cheap operation and low recoil, then the 308 is a great round. This is of course with 1000 yard paper target for fun and practice and a legitimate 600 yard deer round in mind.

The 270 is OK but you dont have quite the bullet selection, will require a long action and the barrel wont last as long. Recoil will be similar depending on powder and bullet choices.

If you want to 'dive' into long range hunting it will require lots of practice and experimenting. The 308 is very user friendly for begginers.

If you want a legitimate 1000 yard big game rifle, you are barking up the wrong tree with either the 308 or 270. I say legitimate because you can kill an elk with either at 1K but the margin for error is MUCH greater than with a big 300 or 338. You need retained velocity for bullet expansion and retained energy for the obvious. There are very few bullet/velocity combo's with the 308 or 270 that will ensure a well constructed bullet will open up on game at 1K.

Just my $.02

Limits are only perceived by what has previously been achieved. Push the limits and good things will happen.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Go the distance or go home

Follow through matters. SEE THE FIRE!!! rifle.gif

August 2013 Dall sheep: Sheep: 2. 308Nut: 0. Stay tuned!

August 2013 Antelope: SUCCESSFULL!! August 22 2013

October 2013 Bull elk: Gonna burn this tag this time.

It's going to be a GREAT year! So far it HAS been a great year!


#8 308Nut

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when ya get out to 1000 yrds the difference in ft lbs bewteen the 300 338 and the 308 are less than 200 anyway



What the.....?????

Limits are only perceived by what has previously been achieved. Push the limits and good things will happen.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Go the distance or go home

Follow through matters. SEE THE FIRE!!! rifle.gif

August 2013 Dall sheep: Sheep: 2. 308Nut: 0. Stay tuned!

August 2013 Antelope: SUCCESSFULL!! August 22 2013

October 2013 Bull elk: Gonna burn this tag this time.

It's going to be a GREAT year! So far it HAS been a great year!


#9 elkaholic

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when ya get out to 1000 yrds the difference in ft lbs bewteen the 300 338 and the 308 are less than 200 anyway



What the.....?????



ok minor mis statement - the 30-378 instead of 338 - my mistake

i was refering to energy at 1000 and i took it to mean ft lbs.

referring to recent article in the western hunter discussing ballistic performance at 1000 yrds.


i'm not gonna try to quoate whole chart -

150 grain - b.c. 0.49 -- 30-378 - MV-3560 -energy 4224-- 300 win-MV-3290 - energy 3608--- 308- MV 3000- energy 2998

at 10000 yrds - vel 30-378-1590-energy 850 - vel 300 win- 1442-energy-695 -- vel 308 1228 ,energy 552



180 gr - b.c. .52 -- 30 -378 MV -3420- energy 4675 -- 300 win - MV 3130- energy 3914 -- 308- MV 2880- energy 2880 -energy 3041

at 1000 vel- 30-378 1716 energy -1176 -- 300 win - vel- 1532- energy-938 -- 308- vel-1302-energy -678

sorry for my misquote at less than 200

but " AT 1000 YRDS THE MAGNUMS START OUT WITH HUGE MARGINS OF ENERY AT THE MUZZLE - BUT THEIR MARGIN IS AS NARROW AS 400 OR EVEN 200 FT-LBS AT 1000-"


you need to read the article in the latest western hunter - Bullet Proof - basically the 308 can out-perform the bigger magnums accross the board at 800 yrds. here agin i'm quoting the article - not from personel experience.

Proper meat care equals the tastiest table fare!

#10 Str8Shot

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when ya get out to 1000 yrds the difference in ft lbs bewteen the 300 338 and the 308 are less than 200 anyway



What the.....?????



ok minor mis statement - the 30-378 instead of 338 - my mistake

i was refering to energy at 1000 and i took it to mean ft lbs.

referring to recent article in the western hunter discussing ballistic performance at 1000 yrds.


i'm not gonna try to quoate whole chart -

150 grain - b.c. 0.49 -- 30-378 - MV-3560 -energy 4224-- 300 win-MV-3290 - energy 3608--- 308- MV 3000- energy 2998

at 10000 yrds - vel 30-378-1590-energy 850 - vel 300 win- 1442-energy-695 -- vel 308 1228 ,energy 552



180 gr - b.c. .52 -- 30 -378 MV -3420- energy 4675 -- 300 win - MV 3130- energy 3914 -- 308- MV 2880- energy 2880 -energy 3041

at 1000 vel- 30-378 1716 energy -1176 -- 300 win - vel- 1532- energy-938 -- 308- vel-1302-energy -678

sorry for my misquote at less than 200

but " AT 1000 YRDS THE MAGNUMS START OUT WITH HUGE MARGINS OF ENERY AT THE MUZZLE - BUT THEIR MARGIN IS AS NARROW AS 400 OR EVEN 200 FT-LBS AT 1000-"


you need to read the article in the latest western hunter - Bullet Proof - basically the 308 can out-perform the bigger magnums accross the board at 800 yrds. here agin i'm quoting the article - not from personel experience.

10000 yards :o !!! seriously, it has been my experience that it depends on the hunter as to which gun is preferred, and as 308nut said that lots of practice and experimenting with different loads is required. Remember that muzzle velocity and the bullets BC have direct impacts on the True velocity and trajectory of the bullet, as well as other environmental factors.
And Shepherds we shall be
For thee, my Lord, for thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand
Our feet may swiftly carry out Thy commands.
So we shall flow a river forth to Thee
And teeming with souls shall it ever be.

In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti.

#11 youngbuck

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I'm not sure who wrote the article, or exactly what his loads were. My three LR rigs energy levels at 1k yds (2600ft elv): 1078 ft/lb, 1721 ft/lb, and 2644 ft/lbs. Like 308 said, 270s are limited in bullet choices for energy at 1k. 6.5mm, 7mm and 30cal all have great selection of bullets, and multiple choice with high enough BCs to keep energy up at 1k+.

edit: It looks like they were using 150 & 180gr bullet in the .30 for energy numbers. That weight of bullet is the last choice if you are wanting energy at 1k. In the 30-378 208gr+ bullets will really shine. It will top my energy at 1k (1727 ft/lb) in my RUM using 230gr bergers.

#12 308Nut

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Fair enough elkaholic.

One of the things I have learned over the years is that you can out perform the 30-378 with the 308 at a full 1K depending on the bullet choices but never with equal bullet weights run at max potential. For example: The 308 running the 208 AMAX or 210 VLD will hit harder and drift less at 1K than the 150 or 168 out of the 30-378. This is of course running max loads in each. However, the 30-378 will shoot flatter than the 308 equal bullet weights or not. Use equal weights for each rifle and top loads, the 30-378 will eat the 308 every time. Unfortunately, it will eat the barrel just the same.

On average, the 308 can deliver anywhere from 500-750 pounds of energy at 1K using 155-180 grain bullets. The 300 Win mag between 850-1050 pounds with the same. The 30-378 between 1200-1600 pounds using 180-210 grain bullets. The 338 Win Mag 1200-1600 using 225-300 grain bullets and the 338 Lapua or 338 Edge 1500-2100 pounds using 225-300 grain bullets. At least at sea level.

There are exceptions to those listed above but that is a general guide. In general, the 308 is just not that well suited for a 1K yard hunting rifle. Yes it can be done but there are more forgiving choices out there.

Limits are only perceived by what has previously been achieved. Push the limits and good things will happen.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Go the distance or go home

Follow through matters. SEE THE FIRE!!! rifle.gif

August 2013 Dall sheep: Sheep: 2. 308Nut: 0. Stay tuned!

August 2013 Antelope: SUCCESSFULL!! August 22 2013

October 2013 Bull elk: Gonna burn this tag this time.

It's going to be a GREAT year! So far it HAS been a great year!


#13 elkaholic

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no doubts on the flatter trajectories - it's the end results that are comparable

i agree with all the new bullets / powders etc. that the handloader has the advantage of tweekin a super load for long range - for hunting purposes bigger can be better


the .308 set standards / records for yrs in the long range shoots.



"long range shooting has evolved in many ways. One of the major trends is towards smaller calibers. Calibers as small as 6mm, and even .224" are commonly being used in 600 and 1000 yard prone and benchrest competition. In spite of the once common knowledge that “bigger is better” for long range shooting, the “benchmark” has shrunk from the big .30 cal magnums to the more moderate 6.5mm. Long range championships are being won with the tiny 6mmBR "

Proper meat care equals the tastiest table fare!

#14 308Nut

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Agreed. The 6.5x284 is a very popular 1K match/BR rifle for 2 main reasons. 1: They are very accurate. 2: They don't recoil as much as magnums. They also happen to have high BC potential which offers forgivness in windy situations. I knew a guy shooting in a 2 day match who was using a 7mm WSM. Using very heavy high BC bullets he smoked the competition on day one. His horizontal separation was much less than any one elses. On day 2 he had his a$$ handed to him because of recoil fatique. This is why smaller is better on the target range. They just dont beat you up as much as larger calibers.

We just have to remember that paper targets and game targets is far from an apples to apples comparison. The 308 is my all around favorate cartrige and has been for years and most likely will be for many years. In hunting situations, you have to consider having the stones to do the job. What is the job? The job is to have enough velocity/energy to open the bullet.

There is mathematical energy and transfered energy. Or lack therof for that matter. You can take a 180 FMJ at 1800 FPS and have roughly 1300 foot pounds of energy mathematically. However, the FMJ penciling right through an animal does very little for a quick, clean kill. If you use an expanding bullet, you have the same energy mathematically speaking but it opens up, becomes very blunt and transfers much more energy upon the animal while tearing a big ragged hole. IMHO, bullet expansion is more important than 'energy'. All that said, most hunting bullets require at least 1800 FPS for reliable and predictable expansion. Trust me, it is very difficult to find a load for a 308 that offers 1800 FPS at 1000 yards. No matter how you slice it, the 308 will peter out to 1800 FPS between 600-750 yards depending on the bullet used. This distance can be increased with elevation and higher temps but even then about 800 yards is it.

If one is he!! bent on using the 308 as a 1K hunting rifle, you have to select bullets that will expand at lower velocities such as the Sierra Game Kings or Hornady AMAX's. The 200 grain SGK can deliver 1500 FPS at 1K with 1000 foot pounds. 1500 FPS is an acceptable velocity for expansion for the 200 SGK. Another bullet to concider is the GS custom HV bullets. They too have 1500 FPS impact requirments and also sport decent BC's. These are great choices for calibers with lower starting velocities. Otherwise, you will need more starting velocity and/or the stones to drive a heavier bullet with a higher BC to a point where you will have 1800 FPS at 1K yards. The 308 is capable long range hunting rifle but it still is less than optimum for a legitimate 1K yard hunting rifle.

Just agreeing with you here.

Limits are only perceived by what has previously been achieved. Push the limits and good things will happen.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Go the distance or go home

Follow through matters. SEE THE FIRE!!! rifle.gif

August 2013 Dall sheep: Sheep: 2. 308Nut: 0. Stay tuned!

August 2013 Antelope: SUCCESSFULL!! August 22 2013

October 2013 Bull elk: Gonna burn this tag this time.

It's going to be a GREAT year! So far it HAS been a great year!


#15 Mike S

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A little birdy (owner of a very well constructed ammo manufacturing company) told me that tolerances for MOST factory ammo is 10%. So each shot could have a 10% difference in muzzle velocity, trajectory etc.



And you believed those numbers?!?




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