otc changes--> increase in trophy quality?

[Markleo21377]

15 minutes ago, creed said:

I have seen way to many 180 bucks turn 160 when they hit the ground. 25 years ago I expected to see a 200" buck during the otc hunts. Then it became 180. Now a 160 buck is a really good buck. I think that drought and predators are the biggest reason why. On one ranch I hunt the old rancher was a cat killing fanatic. Deer herds were good. He sold and the next guy had the attitude that cats were  part of the environment and he wouldn't hunt them. Deer population and quality took a big hit.

Throw in habitat loss, people everywhere during the winter months and no help from G&F and the deer herds are in the shape they are in now. I have been helping family with their rifle hunts and noticed fawn survival is horrible. Doesn't say much for what the future holds.
 

I think your spot on. Deer recovery is very slow from hardships such as drought and predators. Our farm we hunt in kansas was hit terrible with EHD in 2012. That area used to have approximately 40 deer per square mile and it went down to like 15. Couple that with fawn kill from coyotes and bobcats and it takes over 10 years to get back to those numbers assuming you harvest enough predators each year and you have minimal kill from EHD and winters. We still don’t shoot does because we don’t see enough fawns. We smack the heck out of the yotes and they seem to never go down in number.

Enough negativity though, I have a 3A/3c December tag to focus on and can’t wait to see what shows up during the rut. My buddies holding my bullets so I don’t get antsy 🤣🤣

[trphyhntr]

29 minutes ago, creed said:

I have seen way to many 180 bucks turn 160 when they hit the ground. 25 years ago I expected to see a 200" buck during the otc hunts. Then it became 180. Now a 160 buck is a really good buck. I think that drought and predators are the biggest reason why. On one ranch I hunt the old rancher was a cat killing fanatic. Deer herds were good. He sold and the next guy had the attitude that cats were  part of the environment and he wouldn't hunt them. Deer population and quality took a big hit.

Throw in habitat loss, people everywhere during the winter months and no help from G&F and the deer herds are in the shape they are in now. I have been helping family with their rifle hunts and noticed fawn survival is horrible. Doesn't say much for what the future holds.
 

You know I DM’d you twice to send you a pic of the second biggest desert typical frame you’ve ever seen and you don’t respond 

[MrBojangles]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:07 PM, 6AYoteHunter said:

Our mule deer herd took a pretty big hit the last couple years. One of the mule deer herds near my house dropped from 32 to only 5 survivors. Coues herd went from 28 to 2 in the same spot. It will take years to bounce back. Ask the guides this year. Dwuane Adams said most difficult hunt in 40+ years. My Dad said he has never seen it this bad. Areas that got hit the worse had higher populations of cats. If you find pockets that the cats missed then good bucks can be found. Don't expect to find a 180 class mule deer anywhere in the next few years. Dwuane's entire camp never saw that class deer and they have killed more 200+" deer than anyone. 

I heard that podcast it sounded like things have definitely been tough. 

On 11/9/2021 at 9:29 AM, Sneaker said:

I think your expectations need to be adjusted by alot. Unless you have a month to scout or live in the unit and are there all the time year after year or have a friend that does, no non-premium unit would a non-guided hunter be able to "expect" to find or kill a deer over 180. They are just very rare. They are there, but they are few, even a very good hard hunting out of state hunter would have to just get very lucky to even find one in say 10 days. Alot of places don't even have that kind of genetics/nutrients and there are too many rifle tags in all these general units for almost any buck to even get old enough to see that size. As most people probably do on here , I consider myself a very good hunter, and have probably only seen maybe 4 bucks truly 180 class or above south of the grand canyon in my whole life, and I've glassed and hiked and hunted and ran cameras in AZ ALOT in my life. I agree OTC archery changes hardly will affect what type of bucks the rifle guys could expect to see. If you would be happy with say 160, you could at least have a fighting chance of finding one if you are an all-in hunter on a general unit here.

Thank you for the insight you are right I probably wouldn't know what do to with myself if I even saw a 160 type buck, forget 180. I know it takes years and years of experience to start to put it together in areas and just increase your chances of seeing big animals, let alone kill them. Got my butt kicked a couple years ago in december on otc archery just was ecstatic to see a 4x3. Havent been able to go back since due to work and having a kid but I definitely don;t expect to pull up in a unit and shoot a giant buck no matter what  unit I am in. I probably would save up and try to hire an outfitter to increase my chances as this would be a special hunt that I most likely would never be able to do again. Just hoping for increased chances for big deer eventually south of the ditch with the decrease in otc tags so I dont have to battle point creep forever. good luck to you the rest of your season

On 11/9/2021 at 3:21 PM, Markleo21377 said:

I have to echo what sneaker said. Some people throw 180” around like they are killed frequently. Even on the strip and kaibab the average deer checked is consistently below 180”. Of course the age class and genetics greatly increase your odds in those units though. I have seen plenty of deer in the desert units pushing 180 and sometimes even bigger. I had a friends dad kill a 203” desert Muley in a unit that non residents can draw with 4 points. Here is a buck killed by my buddies farm two days ago that hits the magic mark. Unit can be drawn by nonresident with 4 points. 
 

OTC units will naturally get a bit better when you get rid of some stress from the ridiculous amount of hunters in the field.
 

Those desert hunts are a grind and we spend a bunch of time to turn them up. If you decide to burn points on a hunt south of the ditch hit me up and we can give yah some assistance. Sincerely, Mark

Thank you mark that's a fantastic buck. That has to feel awesome when it all comes together after putting in all that work over the years. I live in a fantastic place but definitely dream what if at times, thinking what it would be like to be searching for needle in a haystack giant desert muleys if I lived in AZ. That has to be addicting.  Appreciate the offer for future help, if you ever were interested in archery hunting axis deer in hawaii on lanai I can reciprocate the favorite. I helped a guy on archerytalk shoot a velvet buck but unfortunately with work and life  and starting a family wasn;t ever able to go back to az and try and take advantage after helping him out. I'll be back someday though, perhaps we'll be in touch. 

[HyNoon]

On 11/9/2021 at 6:30 PM, trphyhntr said:

 

do you guy remember that kid that killed the velvet buck last year saying it was 180 and got really mad when people said it wasn’t. What happened to that guy and official score he was gonna get 

You mean #180club guy lol

[Explorer]

Spent 2 weeks hunting around williams on a late archery hunt. Lots and lots of big healthy coyotes. Saw a couple fawns but not many. Decreased otc hunts will help rifle hunts. Lots of factors take out deer numbers. I hunted archery in 17a alot back in the day and there were deer everywhere. And not much pressure. Then the limited opp. Elk hunts started and people found the deer hunting was better than the elk hunting and it is all shot to heck. 

[StickFlicker]

On 11/12/2021 at 6:22 PM, MrBojangles said:

I probably would save up and try to hire an outfitter to increase my chances as this would be a special hunt that I most likely would never be able to do again.

Keep in mind that the cost of a good guide in the better the units (those north of the Canyon, and the strip in particular) is usually higher than the cost of one in the rest of the state, so factor that in as well.  It could easily cost $6,000-$7,000 to hire one of the better known guides on the Strip for a 7 day hunt.