Big or Bust Report post Posted 20 hours ago 6 hours ago, Markleo21377 said: Nope, these conversations on the rut are always interesting. The scientific facts, proved by biologists everywhere is peak estrus is always the same give or take a couple days because it is triggered by length of day. The perceived “rut” can vary based on drought, temperature, bull to cow ratios and other factors. If cows aren’t bred in their “window” typical 10-16 hours they will come back in estrus approximately 28 days later. Often, October intensity can be high because available cows left to breed is low and bulls are competing heavily for last breeding rights. They get desperate and seek more, sleep less and bugle more to announce to cows they are available. Honest question here. I'm a biologist by training, not deer, but don't know the answers to the below other than my 60+ days in the field in the fall. The last 10 years there have been at least 4 to 5 very bad droughts years and in my opinion from what I've seen in the field, for both deer and elk, the secondary rut, say October for elk and late Jan to mid Feb for deer, sometimes has been just as active or even more avtice as what I will call the primary rut. What happens if now having tons of late calves and fawns which there are, are now mature and not coming into estrus until the "second" cycle which is normal for when they were born. At what point does the "rut" shift a month later and that is the new "norm" based on environmental conditions? Or do they late calves and fawns naturally want to cycle when they are mature at the "primary" rut time due to length of day? There has been significant rut behavior differences in the past 10 years IMHO... Sorry for typos. Typing from phone on top of a mountain. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chef Report post Posted 19 hours ago 1 hour ago, Big or Bust said: Or do they late calves and fawns naturally want to cycle when they are mature at the "primary" rut time due to length of day? Yes. Regardless of when they were conceived/born...they will follow the natural primary rut cycle once they are mature breeding age. I have noticed that if feed isn't good due to dry conditions, they won't come into estrus. If we see late rain activity, like we did this year, this will kick them into second estrus. They will also kick into second estrus if they didn't get bred during the primary cycle. (if conditions are good) This has been my experience closely paying attention all these years. I too have witnessed where the second rut is unbelievable. Unfortunately, this happens on years we don't put in for tags due to bad antler growth. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CatfishKev Report post Posted 17 hours ago 3 hours ago, Big or Bust said: Honest question here. I'm a biologist by training, not deer, but don't know the answers to the below other than my 60+ days in the field in the fall. The last 10 years there have been at least 4 to 5 very bad droughts years and in my opinion from what I've seen in the field, for both deer and elk, the secondary rut, say October for elk and late Jan to mid Feb for deer, sometimes has been just as active or even more avtice as what I will call the primary rut. What happens if now having tons of late calves and fawns which there are, are now mature and not coming into estrus until the "second" cycle which is normal for when they were born. At what point does the "rut" shift a month later and that is the new "norm" based on environmental conditions? Or do they late calves and fawns naturally want to cycle when they are mature at the "primary" rut time due to length of day? There has been significant rut behavior differences in the past 10 years IMHO... Sorry for typos. Typing from phone on top of a mountain. As crazy monkey stated it's all about photoperiod same goes for deer. But I think you are on to something regarding changing weather patterns. Even the monsoon season seems to be changing imo. We were promised a wet year this time around and it was dismal during the typical time then came hard late on. I'm no biologist but if the pattern continues I could still see it based on photoperiod but I could imagine that sweet spot will be changing over the next 10 years. Typically deer rutting here had to do with birth time coming during monsoons. I could see the deer rut starting a tad later to coincide with later monsoons which I would imagine will start to be ingrained in the deer populations biological clock. Not a biologist, just thinking this will probably become a thing over time here in AZ. I was scouting an OTC elk unit a few years back and heard bugles in November. Just really makes you wonder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idgaf Report post Posted 16 hours ago When i used to get late season archery tags. A friend called in more than a few bulls for me in November. I think there are two reasons for the later and later rut. 1st is all the females are not bred in September making them go into a second estrus cycle. 2nd and I see this with deer as well, the amount of human interaction with elk during September is extreme and forces them back a month to the less interrupted of October. Back in the 90s when archery and calling was still fringe. I would watch full rutting on September 1st. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big or Bust Report post Posted 13 hours ago 3 hours ago, idgaf said: When i used to get late season archery tags. A friend called in more than a few bulls for me in November. I think there are two reasons for the later and later rut. 1st is all the females are not bred in September making them go into a second estrus cycle. 2nd and I see this with deer as well, the amount of human interaction with elk during September is extreme and forces them back a month to the less interrupted of October. Back in the 90s when archery and calling was still fringe. I would watch full rutting on September 1st. Kinda what I was trying to say... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites