It has been bugging me…

[slopoke36]

I don't agree with "if it is legal is ethical". - Can I shoot a big game animal in the stomach in purpose? Is not illegal but it is ethical?

 

Ernesto C

 

+1

[Guest Lobo]

Coues 'n' Sheep: You make a very good point about legendary archery hunters making great shots but who can you name on this site that has done that? My point is: you are comparing the elite with "Joe" hunter. A long range shot at living animals is not hunting, it’s shooting. Only wannabe sniper knuckleheads pull these stunts. There is no fair chase and no challenge at shots well over 400 yards. There is no chance for the animal at all. There is always a way to get closer and pursue the animal the way it was intended. Real hunters with patience and ability get closer.

I look at it like I look at sky busting for ducks and geese. Once in a while it works but most of time you just piss other people off.

 

 

+1

[jnobleinaz]

Whatever the shooter is comfortable with is the best rule. Nobody's perfect. Every situation is different, terrain, weather, rest, adrenalin, etc. All the same rules with archery apply to rifles, except it is even worse with archery equipment when you do not have the energy factor. I missed my buck high clean a couple times this year mostly due to angle compensation. But my kill shot was clean through the boiler. I could not get closer and had a great rest, felt solid, and took the shot. If this makes me an amateur oh well. I can shoot pretty good though.

[308Nut]

Coues 'n' Sheep: You make a very good point about legendary archery hunters making great shots but who can you name on this site that has done that? My point is: you are comparing the elite with "Joe" hunter. A long range shot at living animals is not hunting, it’s shooting. Only wannabe sniper knuckleheads pull these stunts. There is no fair chase and no challenge at shots well over 400 yards. There is no chance for the animal at all. There is always a way to get closer and pursue the animal the way it was intended. Real hunters with patience and ability get closer.

 

I look at it like I look at sky busting for ducks and geese. Once in a while it works but most of time you just piss other people off.

 

Believe it or not, the fact that I have the ability to shoot far and have a natural inability to consistently get close to game has actually put me at a disadvantage a time or two. I have skunked a time or two because of this. My good friend and hunting buddy is very stealthy but not profficient at long range. This has been to his advantage a time or two as well. However, his inability to shoot long lead has been to his detriment a time or two. If that is not fair chase then what is?

 

There is no right or wrong in the above. Just different abilities put to use when opprotunity knocks. It has been said, "Luck is where preperation and opprotunity meet." I guess I have just been lucky all of this time as has my buddy. It does'nt really matter. We both prepare, we both see opprotunity, we both capitalize on it. Call it hunting or call it shooting or whatever you want. It is all hunting AND shooting. Harvesting is the point where it is no longer hunting and involves shooting be it 1 yard, 100 yards or 1000 yards. If you have ever harvested an animal, you were a 'hunter' for a time and a 'shooter' for a time.

[desertdog]

Well this is a interesting topic. And I don’t know exactly how to put into words my feelings on the subject. I think out if all the posts I am in more of Larks view point. Very well said Lark. I have a much bigger problem with the people that waste meat, don’t go to check to see if they have made a hit after they have fired on an animal, and those that leave behind dirty camps and drive off roads and do great damage to pastures.

 

The longest shot I have took and made was at 440 yards. It was a one shot one kill type of deal. I was hunting with my best friend (brother). He past up the shot because he was using a new rifle that year and was not familiar/comfortable with it out to that range. I have been carrying the same gun, using the same load for that gun for over 15 years. I was not even sure if I was gunna take the shot but I had a rock solid rest, there was no wind, weather was clear and just perfect. I felt steady and it worked out just like a charm, perfect. Having said that I have missed deer at much closer ranges. Not only missed them but wounded them and had to put a second one in them to get the job done. I don’t like it when it happens but this is a imperfect sport/hobby/way of life.

 

I grew up being taught by my dad, uncles, great uncles, family friends and by my grandpa. Now he is a man that grew up hunting not for sport or thrill or for antler size. He grew up hunting to feed his family. Sisters, brothers, parents, wife kids, the list goes on. He instilled a “when you get your chance you better not miss attitude” in my dad and myself. He had that attitude not because it sucks and it feels bad when you miss. But because when he was growing up if he or one of his brothers missed people would be going hungry for awhile. He definitely grew up and passed down “ethics” or a code. But passing up on a long shot was not in his vocabulary. Now I don’t mean 5 or 600 yard shots, but 300 yard shots were common place, and shots at that distance were and still are ones that is expected to be made. He grew up hunting with open sights of course. And he still talks about the first person in the family (his brother) to get a telescope as he calls it, and how it changed the game of long distant shots. I guess I fall back on what I was taught by him and my dad. Know you limits. Don’t just start flinging lead out there and see what happens. Know the situation and know your surrounding. Calm yourself and slow the situation down and take the best shot you can. Don’t be scared to take a long shot but also know when it is to long for you or the situation is not right. Common sense I guess is what it comes down to.

[DesertBull]

Coues 'n' Sheep: You make a very good point about legendary archery hunters making great shots but who can you name on this site that has done that? My point is: you are comparing the elite with "Joe" hunter. A long range shot at living animals is not hunting, it’s shooting. Only wannabe sniper knuckleheads pull these stunts. There is no fair chase and no challenge at shots well over 400 yards. There is no chance for the animal at all. There is always a way to get closer and pursue the animal the way it was intended. Real hunters with patience and ability get closer.

 

I look at it like I look at sky busting for ducks and geese. Once in a while it works but most of time you just piss other people off.

 

and who gets to decide what is a long range shot?

 

[desertdog]

Coues 'n' Sheep: You make a very good point about legendary archery hunters making great shots but who can you name on this site that has done that? My point is: you are comparing the elite with "Joe" hunter. A long range shot at living animals is not hunting, it’s shooting. Only wannabe sniper knuckleheads pull these stunts. There is no fair chase and no challenge at shots well over 400 yards. There is no chance for the animal at all. There is always a way to get closer and pursue the animal the way it was intended. Real hunters with patience and ability get closer.

 

I look at it like I look at sky busting for ducks and geese. Once in a while it works but most of time you just piss other people off.

 

and who gets to decide what is a long range shot?

 

Excellent question, and I believe that has to come down to the person pulling the trigger. Only that person knows if they should be taking the shot or not. We as friends or family may have insight or input but it rests with the shooter IMHO. And I am all for a person testing their limits or going for personal bests pending the situation. But like drinking know when to say when. And I have a very liberal view on the long shot question.

[justanotherpunk]

What we do when we think nobody is looking! That's what keeps running through my head.

 

I'm not new to hunting nor am i new to ideas being tossed around. Seems like my Father and I spend more than 50% of the time we spend talking about hunting, shooting and the outdoors on these topics.

 

Nobody is perfect! I've lost 2 big game animals to my failures as a sportsman and had another very close call with another. A few things I've learned the hard way, Elk are way tougher, antelope are way faster than i ever could have imagined and i don't always possess the patience i need to.

 

As for shooting at past 400 yrds, I've done it successfully and will probably do it again but not until i get back to regular practice as i was embarrassed by my performance during this years hunt at a range that almost everyone I've ever talked to would claim as easy.

 

For me the bottom line comes down to respect. Respect for others in the field and for the animals we pursue. Unfortunately my experiences have taught me there are far to many people in the field that don't possess either.

[Mr. Jonathan]

C&S - you have a knack for creating threads that provoke thought and introspection, and ultimately, I believe, for the betterment of hunting and our hunting community. I remember the thread about following archery shots you started. Thanks for bringing out the important stuff. I hope this thread gets pinned and people continue to bring to it both honest and beneficial comments.

 

I archery hunt almost exclusively and though I practice out to 90 & 100, I don't ever care to shoot at animals beyond 50 because I want to get close - as close as I possible can!

 

I broke out the rifle this year (first time in 8 years) because I was tire of getting humiliated by Coues deer with my bow but they got the best of me again. I ended up taking my buck at 80 yards after taking my boots off and sneaking in with my socks. But I missed a perfect shot at him earlier at 300 yards - a shot I should've made and had practiced before the hunt. Like COOSEFAN says, crap happens!

 

I had so much fun on this last hunt though, that I ended up getting a LR rifle and intend to put the time and money into getting it shooting at some good pokes - but not before I've invested enough practice.

 

Thanks again Gino- great thread.

[Jimmer Negamanee]

C&S - you have a knack for creating threads that provoke thought and introspection, and ultimately, I believe, for the betterment of hunting and our hunting community...Thanks again Gino- great thread.

+1

 

Socrates said that the unexamined life is not worth living. It's good to examine our beliefs and philosophies on hunting (or anything else) from time to time. We either walk away with our point of view strengthened, modified, or completely changed. So I thank you for this thread too.

 

Western hunting is much different than hunting in other parts of the country but I don't see how the 800 yd shot you described does not end with a hunter on his hands and knees half a mile from where he took the shot looking for the tiniest droplet of blood, just in case. Even if he thought it was a clean miss. That would disturb me immensely.

[COOSEFAN]

Coues 'n' Sheep: You make a very good point about legendary archery hunters making great shots but who can you name on this site that has done that? My point is: you are comparing the elite with "Joe" hunter. A long range shot at living animals is not hunting, it’s shooting. Only wannabe sniper knuckleheads pull these stunts. There is no fair chase and no challenge at shots well over 400 yards. There is no chance for the animal at all. There is always a way to get closer and pursue the animal the way it was intended. Real hunters with patience and ability get closer.

 

I look at it like I look at sky busting for ducks and geese. Once in a while it works but most of time you just piss other people off.

 

 

DANGIT....and here this whole time I thought I was hunting!

 

slopoke36, although I completely disagree with what you are saying and how you're saying it, I respect your right to your opinions and thanks for sharing honestly with us

 

To keep this reply short, I'll just add that there is a TON of aspects about long range hunting that you are not addressing in your statement. And ALL of those aspects are why it's considered hunting and not just shooting. No matter what weapon you are using and no matter what the distance is, as soon as you have that critter in your scope or behind a pin and your finger is on the trigger, you are about to become a "shooter"! The entire time leading up to that moment, all the planning, scouting, hiking, glassing and finally stalking...... you were a "hunter" and you were hunting.

 

I've killed more critters with a bow than I have with a rifle and I grew up primarily hunting with a bow or a muzzeloader. I fully agree it takes a ton of skill and patience to be a good hunter if you are using a bow or a short range rifle. I also maintain that it takes a ton of skill and patience to be a good hunter with a long range weapon! The difference is in where that skill and patience is applied for each technique but both types of hunting require the same skills to learn about and find your trophy. Hunting is hunting, everyone reserves the right to decide which technique is right for them and as long as it's done with respect to the game, the laws, and other hunters, it's all good JIM>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Santana Outdoors]

 

Wow, lots of good info. I have taken most of my animals all under 200 yrds. But have had opportunities go on some animals I really wanted at over 600 yards because I have never flung a piece of lead over that distance.

 

I just started practicing LR shooting and now comfortable out to 600 yards on a flat shot, with no wind, on my tripod. The more I have researched LR shooting the more I am finding that it is a lot of information needed that has to be processed before pulling the trigger. Unless you are honestly willing to invest the time and learn all about it you shouldn't be shooting over 250 yards anyways. Like Gino said if you are off 6 " at 200 yards you are going to be 2' off at 600 yards or a lot more if you add in all the variables.

 

How many of us has shot at a target at 200 yards and that bullet it 6" off the center? Opps I must have pulled!!!!!! I was with someone this year that shoots all the time and he shoots very well. He was shooting downhill at 250 yards and missed, 6 times!!! He should have read the thread below on down hill shots first.

 

http://forums.coueswhitetail.com/forums/in...c=22047&hl=

 

I am going to share this website in hopes that if you are going to shoot over 250 yards you can use it to make you a better shot. Len's website is a good one on LR http://www.longrangehunting.com/ , lots of good info and way too much for my brain.

 

Gino, good thread! I also have to agree with Lark, and a few others. I know you started in in hopes that it would help some and I think it will. We do need to understand that some hunters are just not going to spend the time to practice, some will practice and just mess up, some can't afford it and some flat out don't care. But I thank God that MOST hunters are some of the best people in the world!

 

Eric

 

 

[308Nut]

I promise I am not trying to be a jerk or a know it all by posting this link below. I really do this because I want you ALL to succeed. That said, PO, I really feel that the link you posted that leads to 'downhill shot question' is very confusing and contains many a thoughts and ideas that will work against a hunter. Below is a link to an article on longrangehunting.com by Brien Ward about correcting for inclined shots. He is an Army Veteran and owner of Sniper Tools. He is spot on with his info. He lists 3 methods of correction. The first being the least accurate, the second being fairly accurate and the third method being the most accurate. Applying the info in that article will keep you all out of trouble and help you make an accurate hit on an incline.

 

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/angle-shooting.php

 

Again, I am not trying to step om any toes, just trying to help you all succeed.

 

Michael

[.270]

once again, ethics= your opinion. nothing more. not one thing we do is "ethical" to an anti hunter. so is hunting unethical? not in my opinion. if you really want "ethics" to be legislated, who is gonna say what is "ethical"? and is what they say is ethical gonna agree with your "opnion". this ain't a slippery slope, it's a d a m n cliff. a cliff none of us wanna fall from. every year the laws in the azgfd regs become more and more restrictive. we don't need anymore laws. the ones we have cover everything there is in every direction, multiple times. we need folks to be responsible and as a group we need to support each other, even if with have different "opinions". just because one guy says something is "unethical", is it? like i've said before, if they had a season where all you could use was a busted wine bottle, i'd go. because i want to be in the field. whether i have a chance of killing something or not. and i want to support others who want to be in the field. even if we have different opinions. i don't have problem with backpackers or campers or hikers or mountain bikers or atv folks or kayakers or trailriders or birdwatchers, even if they don't hunt. it's a free country and it's public land. and i don't want them to have a problem with me because i do hunt. i'll do all i can to help anyone who has an honest desire to be outdoors and enjoy it. i'll do the same for hunters and anglers also, even i have a different opinion of how they like to enjoy the outdoors. as long as what they are doing is within the law, then they are being ethical, as far as i'm concerned. they might not be wise in the way they do things and they may not have much experience, but if they are making an honest effort to hunt and fish and enjoy the land, within the law, then i'm on their side. some one used the .25 auto scenario, and i've heard it dozens of times before. i honestly don't think there is one person alive who thinks using a .25 auto to hunt big game is realistic. in fact, i've never even heard of anyone attempting it. heck, a .25 auto has gotta be better than a 7mm/08. and as far as shooting the gut shot doe, it's fine with me, but don't go telling the game warden. because it is against the law. the reason Az has liberall laws in a lot of areas is because if they didn't they would have an enforcement nightmare. a lot of people think the new law that says you don't need a permit for a concealed weapon is "unethical". i don't. now i look at everyone as if they're armed. i know i am. there is an old saying "opinions are like buttholes, everyone has at least one, and all of em but mine stink". we're all that way. our way is the best way, or even the only way. well, that ain't really true. there's lotsa ways to succesfully achieve most things. if you're ok with it, and it is legal, i'm on your side. Lark.

[308Nut]

Just remember Lark, the 'opinions' you speak of in your last post apply to you as well which is exactally what your last post is. Your opinion.

 

I meen absolutly no dissrespect here either.

 

Regardless, you cannot deny that there are hunters out there that could be doing a much better job by becoming less of a slob. Even if we are all on the same side.

 

Would you be on my side if I shot at a deer standing 100 yards from your house that was directly in line with your grand child's house where I was 500 yards away from your house? The law says not to discharge a firearm within 1/4 mile of an occupied building. I would have broke no laws. I bet you would come outside ank kick my a$$. As well you should. How about an anti hunter's house?

 

Slobs are slobs. They blacken all of our eyes.

 

M