Carmen vs. coues whitetail

[Red Rabbit]

Is there any link between the coues whitetail and the small carmen whitetail of west Texas? Have any DNA tests been done? Were they once related, but have undergone microevolution due to being isolated populations(like the Abert and Kaibab squirrels)?

 

Red Rabbit/Doug

[Arizona Griz]

All white-tails are related since they are of the same species. I believe that there are 31 different sub-species of white-tails from North America thru South America will about 11 here in North America. Some of them are completely isolated from other sub-species (Coues, Carmen Mountain, and Key West) with others having an overlap in range.

Arizona Griz.

[coueshunter]

I hope Amanda can help with this, I am curious for the laypersons definition. I think there are around 14 subspecies here in north america and of course the differences are obvious between an Alberta whitetail versus an AZ coues but I think Red is looking at why are the Carmen so close to coues? kinda like how close a coastal Ore or Wa blacktail is to a Sitka blacktail. Are there some close to "Twin" type whitetail subspecies genetically, like the Carmen Mountain whitetail and the Coues or is habitat the predominant reason these two whitetails are small with obviously large ears proportionate to their body to help dissapate heat in a desert environment? I know I am rambling but generally I wonder how we determine subspecies after years of potential genetic overlapping..................Allen

[Arizona Griz]

I think you are correct with the geographical assumption. There is an animal "law" that states, on the average, the farther you go north in the hemisphere the larger the animals become and smaller the ears for less heat dissapation or something like this. There are some very small subspecies of White-tailed Deer in Central America. All of the White-tailed Deer subspecies have the same genes. It does get interesting how zoologists seem to try to come up with as many different subspecies of a particular species of animal. How is that for rambling?

 

On a different note did you know that there were about 5 or 6 different subspecies of Mule Deer in California?

Arizona Griz.

[coueshunter]

Griz, I like your rambling because it made perfect sense to me. On a side note, I am still thinking about trying to shoot all the listed subspecies in North American deer and its something like 18 seperate (huntable) deer. In that the subspecies for Muleys is something like Rocky Mountain, Desert, Inyo, burro and some other one I think. I think there are three types in CA. I have shot Sitka blacktail, columbian blacktail, rocky mountain muley, northern whitetail, coues whitetail and some weird thought bounced in my head to maybe someday get the other deer since my Deer Slam is complete. Howd that ramble sound????????? .....LOL.........Allen

[Arizona Griz]

The biological law I was thinking of is "Allen's Rule", which states that among warm -blooded creatures the physical extremities - ears, tail, and legs - are shorter in the cooler part of their range than in the warmer parts. This rule is borne out by the Coues Deer, which has larger ears and tail compared to its body size than the northern white-tailed deer.

 

Another biological law is "Bergmann's Rule" which states that the farther a geographic race is found north or south of the equator, the larger the mass of its body will be. The larger the body, the smaller is its relative surface area, resulting in a reduced loss of body heat. Conversely, the hotter the habitat is, the smaller the body and the larger its relative surface will be, allowing for greater heat dissipation.

 

Arizona Griz.

Edited January 1, 1970 by Arizona Griz

[Arizona Griz]

If you are going to shoot all the different sub-species of Mule Deer and White-tailed Deer you had better hurry up and get started. I checked a couple of my deer books and this is what I found.

 

There are 30 different sub-species of White-tailed Deer in Central and North America of which 17 are found north of the mexican border. They are as follows:

1. Virginia

2. Bull's Island

3. Hilton Head Island

4. Blackbeard Island

5. Florida

6. Florida costal

7. Forida key

8. Kansas

9. Avery Island

10. Carmen Mountains

11. Texas

13. Coues

14. Columbian

15. Northwest

16. Dakota

17. Northern woodland

 

There are 11 different sub-species of Mule Deer in North and Central America of which 8 are north of the mexican border. They are as follows:

1. Rocky Mountain

2. California

3. Southern

4. Inyo

5. Burro (some taxonomists do not recoginze these)

6. Desert

7. Columbian blacktail

8. Sitka blacktail

 

Good luck with your dream.

 

Arizona Griz.

Edited January 1, 1970 by Arizona Griz

[Red Rabbit]

Allen, just a few more than 4 bases to touch if you really want to hit a slam, huh?

Griz, thanks for the research. So many deer, so little time(and $).

As I recall, there is someone (with G&F or NAU? ) collecting DNA samples from coues to see about relationships between the mountain ranges. I wonder if he or anyone else has done any work to determine the branching on the whitetail tree.

 

Doug/red rabbit

[coueshunter84]

Ok folks, got a couple of questions for you with the knowledge. What about the " fantails" and the red coues. couple of years ago I got into a little herd of what I have herd referred to as "fantails", Had one broadside looking at me at 50 yards. he had a fully formed rack nice and heavy compared to his body mass. but scored only about 60 inches. with the approximate body weight of 50 lbs , and no this wasent an immature buck he was a perfect 4x4 with eye guards. None of the rest of the herd were any bigger, none of them over 24-26 iinches at the shoulder.

 

And last year got I into a herd of 4 bachelors in November that were red in color and all of them would put a good coues to shame on the body size, all of these were little guys biggest was a 3x2, no eye guards spindly rack. all of them would have gone 150 lbs on the hoof. thanks Shane

Edited January 1, 1970 by coueshunter84

[IdahoCoues]

I too have heard of the small, fully mature deer my grandfather called the Sonoran Fantail. He was born in the Arizona Territory, in Cochise. He recalled a neighbor who killed one, and packed it out like a suitcase, due to its size. I also saw a small set of antlers in a sporting good store in Tucson. They were a small mature set measuring about 50-60 inches. The plaque said they were fantail, although I've yet to hear if the fantail is a confired species by taxonomists. I do have a small, heavy three point shed with a three inch eyeguard, that's a little larger than the palm of my hand. I'd like to think there is a Fantail species.

 

Craig.

[coueshunter84]

Idahocoues, that sounds about right for hwat I have seen. I have only found them in one spot in one unit down here. And only one herd of them. I wonder if they are maybe closer related to the Carmen Mountain than the coues. I know they have to be different just by the body size. And the fact that I have seen this herd several times. All of them are the same size. What make me really think they are a different sub species, is this herd is right in the middle of a bunch of coues and they seem to stay apart. I have never seen a coues with the fantails or vice versa. Although I had a coues buck bust right through the middle of these little guys one time. and the size difference was obvious. He went one way and they went the other. He did not bust them up they stayed together as a herd.

The red ones I have seen in several different places and running with coues. I dont know if they are a different sub species or just a wierd gene. But the body size of the red ones seems to be more than a little bigger than what I call a coues??

Makes you wonder if they have found all the subspecies. Shane