AOUDAD -- NEITHER GOAT NOR SHEEP

[Non-Typical Solutions]

 

Bill, if that argument holds true then why don't we call bull elk, stags, and cow elk, hinds, or vice versa. They will interbreed with red deer and produce fertile offspring.

Are the goat - aoudad hybrids sterile or fertile?

 

 

For the sake of argument, elk and red deer/stag are genetically identical, which is why they can produce viable, fertile offspring. If you took the DNA from a North American elk and a European red deer/stag, you couldn't tell the two apart by species. I sat in on a conservation genetics class almost 10 years ago and we discussed the paper and the species' genetics. I wish I still had that paper. Technically, they should have the exact same scientific name. Taxonomically, they should probably be subspecies, but it will likely never get published or recognized as such because of the record books. Evolving on separate continents for 10,000 years is what has lead to differences in antler growth and vocalizations, but they are still genetically identical. We don't call bull elk stag and cow elk hinds because we do our own thing compared to Europe/Asia. Its like "orthopedic" in NA and "orthopaedic" in Europe.

 

Bill is correct in that Audad are more genetically akin to goats than sheep and I doubt any interbreeding would result in viable offspring, thus making them true hybrids, but arguing over common vernacular is kind of mute. Its kind of like when people tell me they've seen chicken hawks or timber rattlesnakes here in Arizona. Rather than trying to correct everyone and sound righteous (like I used to 20 years ago), I just start talking about it with them. heck, the biologist/taxonomist in me has even learned to start saying "Coos" when referring to those little whitetails!

 

Having said all of that, I'm with Hoghutr and DesertBull in that hunting and harvesting a nice rambilly is one of my bucket list items!

 

But for those of us that don't have any idea it is interesting conversation and enlightening knowledge wise!!! Like others have said, looks incredibly interesting and fun to hunt and would love for my wife to stick a tag in my Christmas/Birthday stocking!!!

[Benbrown]

My curiosity was finally piqued sufficiently to pull up the latest vertebrate classification. They are the first species listed in the family Bovidae under the subfamily Caprinae (the goat subfamily). FWIW, however, the common name given is "Barbary sheep".

[IA Born]

 

 

Bill, if that argument holds true then why don't we call bull elk, stags, and cow elk, hinds, or vice versa. They will interbreed with red deer and produce fertile offspring.

Are the goat - aoudad hybrids sterile or fertile?

 

 

For the sake of argument, elk and red deer/stag are genetically identical, which is why they can produce viable, fertile offspring. If you took the DNA from a North American elk and a European red deer/stag, you couldn't tell the two apart by species. I sat in on a conservation genetics class almost 10 years ago and we discussed the paper and the species' genetics. I wish I still had that paper. Technically, they should have the exact same scientific name. Taxonomically, they should probably be subspecies, but it will likely never get published or recognized as such because of the record books. Evolving on separate continents for 10,000 years is what has lead to differences in antler growth and vocalizations, but they are still genetically identical. We don't call bull elk stag and cow elk hinds because we do our own thing compared to Europe/Asia. Its like "orthopedic" in NA and "orthopaedic" in Europe.

 

Bill is correct in that Audad are more genetically akin to goats than sheep and I doubt any interbreeding would result in viable offspring, thus making them true hybrids, but arguing over common vernacular is kind of mute. Its kind of like when people tell me they've seen chicken hawks or timber rattlesnakes here in Arizona. Rather than trying to correct everyone and sound righteous (like I used to 20 years ago), I just start talking about it with them. heck, the biologist/taxonomist in me has even learned to start saying "Coos" when referring to those little whitetails!

 

Having said all of that, I'm with Hoghutr and DesertBull in that hunting and harvesting a nice rambilly is one of my bucket list items!

 

But for those of us that don't have any idea it is interesting conversation and enlightening knowledge wise!!! Like others have said, looks incredibly interesting and fun to hunt and would love for my wife to stick a tag in my Christmas/Birthday stocking!!!

 

 

It must be late and two long days of being the single dad with my wife out of town must have caught up to me. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take that as a compliment for contributing, or a "shut the #$@! up!" My intention was to contribute to the very interesting conversation and enlightenment. As you can probably tell, I love genetics, especially when it comes to conservation and what we do.

 

Like Phil Cramer said earlier, I still call them rams and ewes and always have. Like you and others, I just want to hunt one! At one time, I almost had my wife talked into letting me put in for an Ibex tag in NM. Those are definitely goats!

[Non-Typical Solutions]

 

 

 

Bill, if that argument holds true then why don't we call bull elk, stags, and cow elk, hinds, or vice versa. They will interbreed with red deer and produce fertile offspring.

Are the goat - aoudad hybrids sterile or fertile?

 

 

For the sake of argument, elk and red deer/stag are genetically identical, which is why they can produce viable, fertile offspring. If you took the DNA from a North American elk and a European red deer/stag, you couldn't tell the two apart by species. I sat in on a conservation genetics class almost 10 years ago and we discussed the paper and the species' genetics. I wish I still had that paper. Technically, they should have the exact same scientific name. Taxonomically, they should probably be subspecies, but it will likely never get published or recognized as such because of the record books. Evolving on separate continents for 10,000 years is what has lead to differences in antler growth and vocalizations, but they are still genetically identical. We don't call bull elk stag and cow elk hinds because we do our own thing compared to Europe/Asia. Its like "orthopedic" in NA and "orthopaedic" in Europe.

 

Bill is correct in that Audad are more genetically akin to goats than sheep and I doubt any interbreeding would result in viable offspring, thus making them true hybrids, but arguing over common vernacular is kind of mute. Its kind of like when people tell me they've seen chicken hawks or timber rattlesnakes here in Arizona. Rather than trying to correct everyone and sound righteous (like I used to 20 years ago), I just start talking about it with them. heck, the biologist/taxonomist in me has even learned to start saying "Coos" when referring to those little whitetails!

 

Having said all of that, I'm with Hoghutr and DesertBull in that hunting and harvesting a nice rambilly is one of my bucket list items!

 

But for those of us that don't have any idea it is interesting conversation and enlightening knowledge wise!!! Like others have said, looks incredibly interesting and fun to hunt and would love for my wife to stick a tag in my Christmas/Birthday stocking!!!

 

 

It must be late and two long days of being the single dad with my wife out of town must have caught up to me. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take that as a compliment for contributing, or a "shut the #$@! up!" My intention was to contribute to the very interesting conversation and enlightenment. As you can probably tell, I love genetics, especially when it comes to conservation and what we do.

 

Like Phil Cramer said earlier, I still call them rams and ewes and always have. Like you and others, I just want to hunt one! At one time, I almost had my wife talked into letting me put in for an Ibex tag in NM. Those are definitely goats!

 

Absolutely not the shut up version, some of you guys truly know your stuff and some of us truly are clueless, I mean, a Javelina is for sure a pig right .

For example, one of the best three way cross breed of pigs is Hampshire boar to a York sow then come back and breed that offspring with a Duroc and you have one of the best meat pigs on the market!!! But hey they are all pigs right???

Honestly was meaning that some of these topics like when you were helping us dissect the different snakes......I was very interested in the information you provided.

I don't read much but I do read CWT every day I am in internet range and I have learned tons from the different sides that people present so don't "shut the #$@! up!"

 

Now to show my ignorance on the subject I am assuming the AOUDAD is an imported critter right?

[hoghntr]

Stolen from web. I also heard that we have more here now than Africa

 

Origin of the Aoudad in Texas

During World War II, American soldiers stationed in Chad and the Barbary Coast of Northern Africa discovered Aoudad and realized their potential as a game animal. After the war (late 40s & early 50s), these soldiers had some animals shipped to ranches in Texas.

 

They soon found that Aoudad are very hard to keep fenced in, and they escaped and have successfully reproduced in Texas. The first recorded Barbary Sheep in Texas were in Llano and Kerr counties, but their popularity quickly made them an in-demand species on game ranches throughout central and southern parts of the state.

 

It has been estimated that the Aoudad population in Texas has grown 1,800% since 1963. Actual numbers across Texas are not known but have been speculated to be 25,000+ animals.

[IA Born]

 

 

 

 

Bill, if that argument holds true then why don't we call bull elk, stags, and cow elk, hinds, or vice versa. They will interbreed with red deer and produce fertile offspring.

Are the goat - aoudad hybrids sterile or fertile?

 

 

For the sake of argument, elk and red deer/stag are genetically identical, which is why they can produce viable, fertile offspring. If you took the DNA from a North American elk and a European red deer/stag, you couldn't tell the two apart by species. I sat in on a conservation genetics class almost 10 years ago and we discussed the paper and the species' genetics. I wish I still had that paper. Technically, they should have the exact same scientific name. Taxonomically, they should probably be subspecies, but it will likely never get published or recognized as such because of the record books. Evolving on separate continents for 10,000 years is what has lead to differences in antler growth and vocalizations, but they are still genetically identical. We don't call bull elk stag and cow elk hinds because we do our own thing compared to Europe/Asia. Its like "orthopedic" in NA and "orthopaedic" in Europe.

 

Bill is correct in that Audad are more genetically akin to goats than sheep and I doubt any interbreeding would result in viable offspring, thus making them true hybrids, but arguing over common vernacular is kind of mute. Its kind of like when people tell me they've seen chicken hawks or timber rattlesnakes here in Arizona. Rather than trying to correct everyone and sound righteous (like I used to 20 years ago), I just start talking about it with them. heck, the biologist/taxonomist in me has even learned to start saying "Coos" when referring to those little whitetails!

 

Having said all of that, I'm with Hoghutr and DesertBull in that hunting and harvesting a nice rambilly is one of my bucket list items!

 

But for those of us that don't have any idea it is interesting conversation and enlightening knowledge wise!!! Like others have said, looks incredibly interesting and fun to hunt and would love for my wife to stick a tag in my Christmas/Birthday stocking!!!

 

 

It must be late and two long days of being the single dad with my wife out of town must have caught up to me. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take that as a compliment for contributing, or a "shut the #$@! up!" My intention was to contribute to the very interesting conversation and enlightenment. As you can probably tell, I love genetics, especially when it comes to conservation and what we do.

 

Like Phil Cramer said earlier, I still call them rams and ewes and always have. Like you and others, I just want to hunt one! At one time, I almost had my wife talked into letting me put in for an Ibex tag in NM. Those are definitely goats!

 

Absolutely not the shut up version, some of you guys truly know your stuff and some of us truly are clueless, I mean, a Javelina is for sure a pig right .

For example, one of the best three way cross breed of pigs is Hampshire boar to a York sow then come back and breed that offspring with a Duroc and you have one of the best meat pigs on the market!!! But hey they are all pigs right???

Honestly was meaning that some of these topics like when you were helping us dissect the different snakes......I was very interested in the information you provided.

I don't read much but I do read CWT every day I am in internet range and I have learned tons from the different sides that people present so don't "shut the #$@! up!"

 

Now to show my ignorance on the subject I am assuming the AOUDAD is an imported critter right?

 

 

Thanks! That's what happens when you're trying to get two kids to two different places at the same time while the next day's carefully laid out schedule changes. I also call javelina pigs even though I know better! Pretty sure they're rodents (my personal favorite to correct)!

 

And, yes, they are nonnative and were imported. I believe the New Mexico population was the result of audad (also Barbary Sheep) escaping from a private ranch somewhere north of Carlsbad.

Texas...oh, Texas. I think Texas has more nonnative, introduced game animals than native ones! My brother-in-law in Laredo actually turned me on to Audad hunting, but he wants to get his the old-fashioned Texas way. He wants to pay good money to sit over a feeder and wait for a good one to come in, same as how he wants to get a 7x7 elk someday. SMH...

[Benbrown]

Among plant taxonomists, there is an oft-repeated saying: "A common name is good for about three counties." Not quite that bad with vertebrates, but common names are just that, and they do vary from place to place.

[hoghntr]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, if that argument holds true then why don't we call bull elk, stags, and cow elk, hinds, or vice versa. They will interbreed with red deer and produce fertile offspring.

Are the goat - aoudad hybrids sterile or fertile?

 

For the sake of argument, elk and red deer/stag are genetically identical, which is why they can produce viable, fertile offspring. If you took the DNA from a North American elk and a European red deer/stag, you couldn't tell the two apart by species. I sat in on a conservation genetics class almost 10 years ago and we discussed the paper and the species' genetics. I wish I still had that paper. Technically, they should have the exact same scientific name. Taxonomically, they should probably be subspecies, but it will likely never get published or recognized as such because of the record books. Evolving on separate continents for 10,000 years is what has lead to differences in antler growth and vocalizations, but they are still genetically identical. We don't call bull elk stag and cow elk hinds because we do our own thing compared to Europe/Asia. Its like "orthopedic" in NA and "orthopaedic" in Europe.

 

Bill is correct in that Audad are more genetically akin to goats than sheep and I doubt any interbreeding would result in viable offspring, thus making them true hybrids, but arguing over common vernacular is kind of mute. Its kind of like when people tell me they've seen chicken hawks or timber rattlesnakes here in Arizona. Rather than trying to correct everyone and sound righteous (like I used to 20 years ago), I just start talking about it with them. heck, the biologist/taxonomist in me has even learned to start saying "Coos" when referring to those little whitetails!

 

Having said all of that, I'm with Hoghutr and DesertBull in that hunting and harvesting a nice rambilly is one of my bucket list items!

But for those of us that don't have any idea it is interesting conversation and enlightening knowledge wise!!! Like others have said, looks incredibly interesting and fun to hunt and would love for my wife to stick a tag in my Christmas/Birthday stocking!!!

It must be late and two long days of being the single dad with my wife out of town must have caught up to me. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take that as a compliment for contributing, or a "shut the #$@! up!" My intention was to contribute to the very interesting conversation and enlightenment. As you can probably tell, I love genetics, especially when it comes to conservation and what we do.

 

Like Phil Cramer said earlier, I still call them rams and ewes and always have. Like you and others, I just want to hunt one! At one time, I almost had my wife talked into letting me put in for an Ibex tag in NM. Those are definitely goats!

Absolutely not the shut up version, some of you guys truly know your stuff and some of us truly are clueless, I mean, a Javelina is for sure a pig right .

For example, one of the best three way cross breed of pigs is Hampshire boar to a York sow then come back and breed that offspring with a Duroc and you have one of the best meat pigs on the market!!! But hey they are all pigs right???

Honestly was meaning that some of these topics like when you were helping us dissect the different snakes......I was very interested in the information you provided.

I don't read much but I do read CWT every day I am in internet range and I have learned tons from the different sides that people present so don't "shut the #$@! up!"

 

Now to show my ignorance on the subject I am assuming the AOUDAD is an imported critter right?

Thanks! That's what happens when you're trying to get two kids to two different places at the same time while the next day's carefully laid out schedule changes. I also call javelina pigs even though I know better! Pretty sure they're rodents (my personal favorite to correct)!

 

And, yes, they are nonnative and were imported. I believe the New Mexico population was the result of audad (also Barbary Sheep) escaping from a private ranch somewhere north of Carlsbad.

Texas...oh, Texas. I think Texas has more nonnative, introduced game animals than native ones! My brother-in-law in Laredo actually turned me on to Audad hunting, but he wants to get his the old-fashioned Texas way. He wants to pay good money to sit over a feeder and wait for a good one to come in, same as how he wants to get a 7x7 elk someday. SMH...

I know your the scientist but since you also think the world is like a billion years old.. I think they declassified javelina and know longer think they are a rat. The javelina is native to the Western Hemisphere while true pigs are native to Eastern.. So my question is why is it not just called a western hemisphered wild pig?

 

Oh and i still wanna kill one of those sheep goat things! Especially now that I know they don't taste like a sheepgoat

[IA Born]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, if that argument holds true then why don't we call bull elk, stags, and cow elk, hinds, or vice versa. They will interbreed with red deer and produce fertile offspring.

Are the goat - aoudad hybrids sterile or fertile?

 

For the sake of argument, elk and red deer/stag are genetically identical, which is why they can produce viable, fertile offspring. If you took the DNA from a North American elk and a European red deer/stag, you couldn't tell the two apart by species. I sat in on a conservation genetics class almost 10 years ago and we discussed the paper and the species' genetics. I wish I still had that paper. Technically, they should have the exact same scientific name. Taxonomically, they should probably be subspecies, but it will likely never get published or recognized as such because of the record books. Evolving on separate continents for 10,000 years is what has lead to differences in antler growth and vocalizations, but they are still genetically identical. We don't call bull elk stag and cow elk hinds because we do our own thing compared to Europe/Asia. Its like "orthopedic" in NA and "orthopaedic" in Europe.

 

Bill is correct in that Audad are more genetically akin to goats than sheep and I doubt any interbreeding would result in viable offspring, thus making them true hybrids, but arguing over common vernacular is kind of mute. Its kind of like when people tell me they've seen chicken hawks or timber rattlesnakes here in Arizona. Rather than trying to correct everyone and sound righteous (like I used to 20 years ago), I just start talking about it with them. heck, the biologist/taxonomist in me has even learned to start saying "Coos" when referring to those little whitetails!

 

Having said all of that, I'm with Hoghutr and DesertBull in that hunting and harvesting a nice rambilly is one of my bucket list items!

But for those of us that don't have any idea it is interesting conversation and enlightening knowledge wise!!! Like others have said, looks incredibly interesting and fun to hunt and would love for my wife to stick a tag in my Christmas/Birthday stocking!!!

It must be late and two long days of being the single dad with my wife out of town must have caught up to me. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take that as a compliment for contributing, or a "shut the #$@! up!" My intention was to contribute to the very interesting conversation and enlightenment. As you can probably tell, I love genetics, especially when it comes to conservation and what we do.

 

Like Phil Cramer said earlier, I still call them rams and ewes and always have. Like you and others, I just want to hunt one! At one time, I almost had my wife talked into letting me put in for an Ibex tag in NM. Those are definitely goats!

Absolutely not the shut up version, some of you guys truly know your stuff and some of us truly are clueless, I mean, a Javelina is for sure a pig right .

For example, one of the best three way cross breed of pigs is Hampshire boar to a York sow then come back and breed that offspring with a Duroc and you have one of the best meat pigs on the market!!! But hey they are all pigs right???

Honestly was meaning that some of these topics like when you were helping us dissect the different snakes......I was very interested in the information you provided.

I don't read much but I do read CWT every day I am in internet range and I have learned tons from the different sides that people present so don't "shut the #$@! up!"

 

Now to show my ignorance on the subject I am assuming the AOUDAD is an imported critter right?

Thanks! That's what happens when you're trying to get two kids to two different places at the same time while the next day's carefully laid out schedule changes. I also call javelina pigs even though I know better! Pretty sure they're rodents (my personal favorite to correct)!

 

And, yes, they are nonnative and were imported. I believe the New Mexico population was the result of audad (also Barbary Sheep) escaping from a private ranch somewhere north of Carlsbad.

Texas...oh, Texas. I think Texas has more nonnative, introduced game animals than native ones! My brother-in-law in Laredo actually turned me on to Audad hunting, but he wants to get his the old-fashioned Texas way. He wants to pay good money to sit over a feeder and wait for a good one to come in, same as how he wants to get a 7x7 elk someday. SMH...

I know your the scientist but since you also think the world is like a billion years old.. I think they declassified javelina and know longer think they are a rat. The javelina is native to the Western Hemisphere while true pigs are native to Eastern.. So my question is why is it not just called a western hemisphered wild pig?

 

Oh and i still wanna kill one of those sheep goat things! Especially now that I know they don't taste like a sheepgoat

 

 

Earth is actually more than a billion years old, my friend! I was joking about the javelina/rodent thing. People try to tell me all the time that they are rodents and it makes me laugh. Javelina are not even in the pig family, which is why they aren't called a western hemisphered wild pig. Taxonomically, they are in the same order as pigs (Artiodactyla), but a different family. Their closest relatives are, in fact, pigs and hippos. Yes, you read that right: hippopotamuses (hippopatami?). No North American relative, but the Tayassuid family is known from the fossil record from all continents except Australia and Antarctica, so they were native almost all over at one point.

 

And I still want to hunt an Audad/Barbary Sheep and shoot a nice Ram/billy, too!

[hoghntr]

Ok Brian just remember all that knowledge is from man's mind my friend. All systems of dating the earth are man designed. Also remember man/scientists have been wrong few times before. I'm sticking with the Bibles take on things. A hippo is a hippo, a javelina is a javelina, a horse didn't use to have gills and I'm betting a frog has always been amphibious etc,etc.. Exagerated with the horse but I have read me some pretty darn stupid stuff around the principal of evolution. Adaptation is a thing I can get behind and believe cuz everything must adapt to change but they never become what they were not in the beginning. Example Man was not a ape and a fish was not a rabbit.

 

1 Corinthians 1:19

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

[billrquimby]

_{IA: You and I are of similar mind. I introduced this thread to get others thinking about this nifty animal so they would learn more about it. I really don't care whether someone calls the aoudad a sheep or a goat unless he's a client and I'm helping write his memoirs. If my name is connected to his book, however, he shot aoudad billys not rams.}

 

_{Incidentally, IA, the SCI record book views the elk/wapiti of North America and Asia and the red deer of Eurasia as one species, Cervus elaphus. It has separate categories for trophy measurements based on where the animal was hunted.}

 

_{Lately, many experts have categorized our elk as Cervus canadensis. I have hunted red deer in New Zealand and Spain, and elk in Mongolia and three U.S. states, and despite obvious differences in their coats, rutting calls, and antler conformation, as a hunter and not a scientist I would say SCI got it right.}

 

_{Bill Quimby}

[IA Born]

Ok Brian just remember all that knowledge is from man's mind my friend. All systems of dating the earth are man designed. Also remember man/scientists have been wrong few times before. I'm sticking with the Bibles take on things. A hippo is a hippo, a javelina is a javelina, a horse didn't use to have gills and I'm betting a frog has always been amphibious etc,etc.. Exagerated with the horse but I have read me some pretty darn stupid stuff around the principal of evolution. Adaptation is a thing I can get behind and believe cuz everything must adapt to change but they never become what they were not in the beginning. Example Man was not a ape and a fish was not a rabbit.

 

1 Corinthians 1:19

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

 

One of things I loved when I started the process to convert to Catholicism five years ago, was that my priest and the RCIA instructors all knew my science background and convictions. They were great in pointing out to me that the Bible was written by man. The same man you point out being wrong before. My priest even sat me down and showed me how the Catholic Church now supports evolution. I've been a scientist long enough to know exactly how wrong man has been before and there is a reason Homo sapiens is my least favorite species to work with. I've also read some pretty darn stupid stuff about evolution, and I've seen that stupid stuff from both believers and non-believers. I've always loved that Charles Darwin was a devout Christian, but stuck to his beliefs in evolution, particularly natural selection. That has certainly helped me find peace with my religious and scientific beliefs. Adaptation is evolution and at least we can agree that horses never had gills, man was not an ape, and a fish was not a rabbit. Beyond that we can agree to disagree and I will always respect your beliefs and convictions, as well as simply respecting the person you are, buddy! You aren't the first, and you certainly won't be the last person I've disagreed with over science and religion. Besides, now we've both digressed from the original post's intentions and I'll still be there to help you pack an elk out!

 

 

_{IA: You and I are of similar mind. I introduced this thread to get others thinking about this nifty animal so they would learn more about it. I really don't care whether someone calls the aoudad a sheep or a goat unless he's a client and I'm helping write his memoirs. If my name is connected to his book, however, he shot aoudad billys not rams.}

 

_{Incidentally, IA, the SCI record book views the elk/wapiti of North America and Asia and the red deer of Eurasia as one species, Cervus elaphus. It has separate categories for trophy measurements based on where the animal was hunted.}

 

_{Lately, many experts have categorized our elk as Cervus canadensis. I have hunted red deer in New Zealand and Spain, and elk in Mongolia and three U.S. states, and despite obvious differences in their coats, rutting calls, and antler conformation, as a hunter and not a scientist I would say SCI got it right.}

 

_{Bill Quimby}

 

The funny thing is, I've always known NA elk as Cervus elaphus, but I have an old field guide that has them as Cervus canadensis! I didn't know about SCI recognizing them as conspecific, but then I also don't follow SCI much. That's awesome! As for your observations as hunter with where all you've hunted them, the only thing I can say is that genetics never lie! I'm going to have to contact the geneticist I was in that class with all those years ago and see if I can get that paper again. Mongolia, though...that's a bucket list trip, but for different reasons: taimen on the fly!!

[Benbrown]

Stolen from web. I also heard that we have more here now than Africa

 

Origin of the Aoudad in Texas

During World War II, American soldiers stationed in Chad and the Barbary Coast of Northern Africa discovered Aoudad and realized their potential as a game animal. After the war (late 40s & early 50s), these soldiers had some animals shipped to ranches in Texas.

 

They soon found that Aoudad are very hard to keep fenced in, and they escaped and have successfully reproduced in Texas. The first recorded Barbary Sheep in Texas were in Llano and Kerr counties, but their popularity quickly made them an in-demand species on game ranches throughout central and southern parts of the state.

 

It has been estimated that the Aoudad population in Texas has grown 1,800% since 1963. Actual numbers across Texas are not known but have been speculated to be 25,000+ animals.

Nice story, but unfortunately, this is fantasy.

 

All exotic ungulates introduced in Texas, beginning as early as the late 1920s, were purchased from zoos--originally from the San Diego Zoo which had a large captive breeding facility at a ranch in southern California. Wild ungulates imported to the U.S. were subject strict quarantine protocols to prevent the introduction of diseases from undeveloped countries that could conceivably affect domestic livestock. Those animals that were released from quarantine could only be kept in approved zoos or zoological parks and could not be released to the wild. However, the offspring of these animals were not subject to such restrictions.

 

Belle Benchley, who became director of the San Diego Zoo in 1927; was largely responsible for making the zoo's captive breeding facility a money making operation rather than a drain on the budget. Many of the animals that they were breeding--especially large ungulates--had become too numerous even for the large ranch. She began to aggressively market and trade these animas. She soon saturated the market, which consisted mostly of other zoos, and there weren't that many with spare cash in their coffers in the early years of the depression.

 

In the late 1920s, Ms. Benchley somehow made the acquaintance of several wealthy Texans who owned ranches which they had purchased primarily for hunting. E. H. Friedrich, who made his fortune in heating and refrigeration, had purchased the Rickenbacker Ranch northwest of San Antonio. He was among the very first, if not the first, to buy and release a variety of exotic ungulates from the San Diego Zoo on his ranch. Some of his hunting buddies also bought animals for their ranches. About the same time, Ms. Benchley began corresponding with Caesar Kleberg who was helping his cousin Robert J. Kleberg, Jr. organize the management of the King Ranch. Caesar was a wildlife enthusiast and he convinced Bob Kleberg to buy and release several species on the King Ranch about this same time.

 

By the end of World War II, the Texas ranches were having the same kinds of surpluses as the San Diego Zoo. The sale and release of exotic ungulates began to spread rapidly, although it remained centered on Edwards Plateau, or Hill Country, of central Texas. Charlie Schreiner, whose family owned the YO Ranch near Kerrville, aggressively promoted the hunting of exotic ungulates, and the ranch became world famous for its exotic animal hunts. A number of ranches began looking at animals which had not yet been imported. They would buy these animals in Africa, Asia, India, and Europe and donate them to zoos with the understanding that some of the progeny would go to the benefactors. As a result, there are now more than 27 species of free-ranging exotic ungulates in Texas, most (if not all) of which can be hunted, if you have the money.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, if that argument holds true then why don't we call bull elk, stags, and cow elk, hinds, or vice versa. They will interbreed with red deer and produce fertile offspring.

Are the goat - aoudad hybrids sterile or fertile?

 

For the sake of argument, elk and red deer/stag are genetically identical, which is why they can produce viable, fertile offspring. If you took the DNA from a North American elk and a European red deer/stag, you couldn't tell the two apart by species. I sat in on a conservation genetics class almost 10 years ago and we discussed the paper and the species' genetics. I wish I still had that paper. Technically, they should have the exact same scientific name. Taxonomically, they should probably be subspecies, but it will likely never get published or recognized as such because of the record books. Evolving on separate continents for 10,000 years is what has lead to differences in antler growth and vocalizations, but they are still genetically identical. We don't call bull elk stag and cow elk hinds because we do our own thing compared to Europe/Asia. Its like "orthopedic" in NA and "orthopaedic" in Europe.

 

Bill is correct in that Audad are more genetically akin to goats than sheep and I doubt any interbreeding would result in viable offspring, thus making them true hybrids, but arguing over common vernacular is kind of mute. Its kind of like when people tell me they've seen chicken hawks or timber rattlesnakes here in Arizona. Rather than trying to correct everyone and sound righteous (like I used to 20 years ago), I just start talking about it with them. heck, the biologist/taxonomist in me has even learned to start saying "Coos" when referring to those little whitetails!

 

Having said all of that, I'm with Hoghutr and DesertBull in that hunting and harvesting a nice rambilly is one of my bucket list items!

But for those of us that don't have any idea it is interesting conversation and enlightening knowledge wise!!! Like others have said, looks incredibly interesting and fun to hunt and would love for my wife to stick a tag in my Christmas/Birthday stocking!!!

It must be late and two long days of being the single dad with my wife out of town must have caught up to me. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take that as a compliment for contributing, or a "shut the #$@! up!" My intention was to contribute to the very interesting conversation and enlightenment. As you can probably tell, I love genetics, especially when it comes to conservation and what we do.

 

Like Phil Cramer said earlier, I still call them rams and ewes and always have. Like you and others, I just want to hunt one! At one time, I almost had my wife talked into letting me put in for an Ibex tag in NM. Those are definitely goats!

Absolutely not the shut up version, some of you guys truly know your stuff and some of us truly are clueless, I mean, a Javelina is for sure a pig right .

For example, one of the best three way cross breed of pigs is Hampshire boar to a York sow then come back and breed that offspring with a Duroc and you have one of the best meat pigs on the market!!! But hey they are all pigs right???

Honestly was meaning that some of these topics like when you were helping us dissect the different snakes......I was very interested in the information you provided.

I don't read much but I do read CWT every day I am in internet range and I have learned tons from the different sides that people present so don't "shut the #$@! up!"

 

Now to show my ignorance on the subject I am assuming the AOUDAD is an imported critter right?

Thanks! That's what happens when you're trying to get two kids to two different places at the same time while the next day's carefully laid out schedule changes. I also call javelina pigs even though I know better! Pretty sure they're rodents (my personal favorite to correct)!

 

And, yes, they are nonnative and were imported. I believe the New Mexico population was the result of audad (also Barbary Sheep) escaping from a private ranch somewhere north of Carlsbad.

Texas...oh, Texas. I think Texas has more nonnative, introduced game animals than native ones! My brother-in-law in Laredo actually turned me on to Audad hunting, but he wants to get his the old-fashioned Texas way. He wants to pay good money to sit over a feeder and wait for a good one to come in, same as how he wants to get a 7x7 elk someday. SMH...

I know your the scientist but since you also think the world is like a billion years old.. I think they declassified javelina and know longer think they are a rat. The javelina is native to the Western Hemisphere while true pigs are native to Eastern.. So my question is why is it not just called a western hemisphered wild pig?

 

Oh and i still wanna kill one of those sheep goat things! Especially now that I know they don't taste like a sheepgoat

 

 

Earth is actually more than a billion years old, my friend! I was joking about the javelina/rodent thing. People try to tell me all the time that they are rodents and it makes me laugh. Javelina are not even in the pig family, which is why they aren't called a western hemisphered wild pig. Taxonomically, they are in the same order as pigs (Artiodactyla), but a different family. Their closest relatives are, in fact, pigs and hippos. Yes, you read that right: hippopotamuses (hippopatami?). No North American relative, but the Tayassuid family is known from the fossil record from all continents except Australia and Antarctica, so they were native almost all over at one point.

 

And I still want to hunt an Audad/Barbary Sheep and shoot a nice Ram/billy, too!

 

Which possibly explains some of my relatives!!!

[Benbrown]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, if that argument holds true then why don't we call bull elk, stags, and cow elk, hinds, or vice versa. They will interbreed with red deer and produce fertile offspring.

Are the goat - aoudad hybrids sterile or fertile?

 

For the sake of argument, elk and red deer/stag are genetically identical, which is why they can produce viable, fertile offspring. If you took the DNA from a North American elk and a European red deer/stag, you couldn't tell the two apart by species. I sat in on a conservation genetics class almost 10 years ago and we discussed the paper and the species' genetics. I wish I still had that paper. Technically, they should have the exact same scientific name. Taxonomically, they should probably be subspecies, but it will likely never get published or recognized as such because of the record books. Evolving on separate continents for 10,000 years is what has lead to differences in antler growth and vocalizations, but they are still genetically identical. We don't call bull elk stag and cow elk hinds because we do our own thing compared to Europe/Asia. Its like "orthopedic" in NA and "orthopaedic" in Europe.

 

Bill is correct in that Audad are more genetically akin to goats than sheep and I doubt any interbreeding would result in viable offspring, thus making them true hybrids, but arguing over common vernacular is kind of mute. Its kind of like when people tell me they've seen chicken hawks or timber rattlesnakes here in Arizona. Rather than trying to correct everyone and sound righteous (like I used to 20 years ago), I just start talking about it with them. heck, the biologist/taxonomist in me has even learned to start saying "Coos" when referring to those little whitetails!

 

Having said all of that, I'm with Hoghutr and DesertBull in that hunting and harvesting a nice rambilly is one of my bucket list items!

But for those of us that don't have any idea it is interesting conversation and enlightening knowledge wise!!! Like others have said, looks incredibly interesting and fun to hunt and would love for my wife to stick a tag in my Christmas/Birthday stocking!!!

It must be late and two long days of being the single dad with my wife out of town must have caught up to me. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take that as a compliment for contributing, or a "shut the #$@! up!" My intention was to contribute to the very interesting conversation and enlightenment. As you can probably tell, I love genetics, especially when it comes to conservation and what we do.

 

Like Phil Cramer said earlier, I still call them rams and ewes and always have. Like you and others, I just want to hunt one! At one time, I almost had my wife talked into letting me put in for an Ibex tag in NM. Those are definitely goats!

Absolutely not the shut up version, some of you guys truly know your stuff and some of us truly are clueless, I mean, a Javelina is for sure a pig right .

For example, one of the best three way cross breed of pigs is Hampshire boar to a York sow then come back and breed that offspring with a Duroc and you have one of the best meat pigs on the market!!! But hey they are all pigs right???

Honestly was meaning that some of these topics like when you were helping us dissect the different snakes......I was very interested in the information you provided.

I don't read much but I do read CWT every day I am in internet range and I have learned tons from the different sides that people present so don't "shut the #$@! up!"

 

Now to show my ignorance on the subject I am assuming the AOUDAD is an imported critter right?

Thanks! That's what happens when you're trying to get two kids to two different places at the same time while the next day's carefully laid out schedule changes. I also call javelina pigs even though I know better! Pretty sure they're rodents (my personal favorite to correct)!

 

And, yes, they are nonnative and were imported. I believe the New Mexico population was the result of audad (also Barbary Sheep) escaping from a private ranch somewhere north of Carlsbad.

Texas...oh, Texas. I think Texas has more nonnative, introduced game animals than native ones! My brother-in-law in Laredo actually turned me on to Audad hunting, but he wants to get his the old-fashioned Texas way. He wants to pay good money to sit over a feeder and wait for a good one to come in, same as how he wants to get a 7x7 elk someday. SMH...

I know your the scientist but since you also think the world is like a billion years old.. I think they declassified javelina and know longer think they are a rat. The javelina is native to the Western Hemisphere while true pigs are native to Eastern.. So my question is why is it not just called a western hemisphered wild pig?

 

Oh and i still wanna kill one of those sheep goat things! Especially now that I know they don't taste like a sheepgoat

 

 

Earth is actually more than a billion years old, my friend! I was joking about the javelina/rodent thing. People try to tell me all the time that they are rodents and it makes me laugh. Javelina are not even in the pig family, which is why they aren't called a western hemisphered wild pig. Taxonomically, they are in the same order as pigs (Artiodactyla), but a different family. Their closest relatives are, in fact, pigs and hippos. Yes, you read that right: hippopotamuses (hippopatami?). No North American relative, but the Tayassuid family is known from the fossil record from all continents except Australia and Antarctica, so they were native almost all over at one point.

 

And I still want to hunt an Audad/Barbary Sheep and shoot a nice Ram/billy, too!

 

Which possibly explains some of my relatives!!!

 

I have met a fair number of people who have javelina confused with the capybara, a pig-sized rodent from South America. Curiously, I never heard them called rodents until I moved to the Arizona-New Mexico border region. For some reason, it seems to be a fairly common misconception around here.