AOUDAD -- NEITHER GOAT NOR SHEEP

[Non-Typical Solutions]

Ben....look where you live!!!! Lots of strange names for things down there !!!

[PRDATR]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, if that argument holds true then why don't we call bull elk, stags, and cow elk, hinds, or vice versa. They will interbreed with red deer and produce fertile offspring.

Are the goat - aoudad hybrids sterile or fertile?

 

For the sake of argument, elk and red deer/stag are genetically identical, which is why they can produce viable, fertile offspring. If you took the DNA from a North American elk and a European red deer/stag, you couldn't tell the two apart by species. I sat in on a conservation genetics class almost 10 years ago and we discussed the paper and the species' genetics. I wish I still had that paper. Technically, they should have the exact same scientific name. Taxonomically, they should probably be subspecies, but it will likely never get published or recognized as such because of the record books. Evolving on separate continents for 10,000 years is what has lead to differences in antler growth and vocalizations, but they are still genetically identical. We don't call bull elk stag and cow elk hinds because we do our own thing compared to Europe/Asia. Its like "orthopedic" in NA and "orthopaedic" in Europe.

 

Bill is correct in that Audad are more genetically akin to goats than sheep and I doubt any interbreeding would result in viable offspring, thus making them true hybrids, but arguing over common vernacular is kind of mute. Its kind of like when people tell me they've seen chicken hawks or timber rattlesnakes here in Arizona. Rather than trying to correct everyone and sound righteous (like I used to 20 years ago), I just start talking about it with them. heck, the biologist/taxonomist in me has even learned to start saying "Coos" when referring to those little whitetails!

 

Having said all of that, I'm with Hoghutr and DesertBull in that hunting and harvesting a nice rambilly is one of my bucket list items!

But for those of us that don't have any idea it is interesting conversation and enlightening knowledge wise!!! Like others have said, looks incredibly interesting and fun to hunt and would love for my wife to stick a tag in my Christmas/Birthday stocking!!!

It must be late and two long days of being the single dad with my wife out of town must have caught up to me. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take that as a compliment for contributing, or a "shut the #$@! up!" My intention was to contribute to the very interesting conversation and enlightenment. As you can probably tell, I love genetics, especially when it comes to conservation and what we do.

 

Like Phil Cramer said earlier, I still call them rams and ewes and always have. Like you and others, I just want to hunt one! At one time, I almost had my wife talked into letting me put in for an Ibex tag in NM. Those are definitely goats!

Absolutely not the shut up version, some of you guys truly know your stuff and some of us truly are clueless, I mean, a Javelina is for sure a pig right .

For example, one of the best three way cross breed of pigs is Hampshire boar to a York sow then come back and breed that offspring with a Duroc and you have one of the best meat pigs on the market!!! But hey they are all pigs right???

Honestly was meaning that some of these topics like when you were helping us dissect the different snakes......I was very interested in the information you provided.

I don't read much but I do read CWT every day I am in internet range and I have learned tons from the different sides that people present so don't "shut the #$@! up!"

 

Now to show my ignorance on the subject I am assuming the AOUDAD is an imported critter right?

Thanks! That's what happens when you're trying to get two kids to two different places at the same time while the next day's carefully laid out schedule changes. I also call javelina pigs even though I know better! Pretty sure they're rodents (my personal favorite to correct)!

 

And, yes, they are nonnative and were imported. I believe the New Mexico population was the result of audad (also Barbary Sheep) escaping from a private ranch somewhere north of Carlsbad.

Texas...oh, Texas. I think Texas has more nonnative, introduced game animals than native ones! My brother-in-law in Laredo actually turned me on to Audad hunting, but he wants to get his the old-fashioned Texas way. He wants to pay good money to sit over a feeder and wait for a good one to come in, same as how he wants to get a 7x7 elk someday. SMH...

I know your the scientist but since you also think the world is like a billion years old.. I think they declassified javelina and know longer think they are a rat. The javelina is native to the Western Hemisphere while true pigs are native to Eastern.. So my question is why is it not just called a western hemisphered wild pig?

 

Oh and i still wanna kill one of those sheep goat things! Especially now that I know they don't taste like a sheepgoat

 

 

Earth is actually more than a billion years old, my friend! I was joking about the javelina/rodent thing. People try to tell me all the time that they are rodents and it makes me laugh. Javelina are not even in the pig family, which is why they aren't called a western hemisphered wild pig. Taxonomically, they are in the same order as pigs (Artiodactyla), but a different family. Their closest relatives are, in fact, pigs and hippos. Yes, you read that right: hippopotamuses (hippopatami?). No North American relative, but the Tayassuid family is known from the fossil record from all continents except Australia and Antarctica, so they were native almost all over at one point.

 

And I still want to hunt an Audad/Barbary Sheep and shoot a nice Ram/billy, too!

 

Which possibly explains some of my relatives!!!

 

I have met a fair number of people who have javelina confused with the capybara, a pig-sized rodent from South America. Curiously, I never heard them called rodents until I moved to the Arizona-New Mexico border region. For some reason, it seems to be a fairly common misconception around here.

 

Pretty sure Jerry Day said their closely related to rodents.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

Interesting thread from 2008 with some Larkism in it about pigs and peccary!

 

http://www.coueswhitetail.com/forums/topic/8343-javelina-pig-or-rodent/page-2

[Benbrown]

Taxonomically, they are ungulates and included in the order Artiodactyla, which are even-toed ungulates. Pigs are in the family Suidae, which includes all of the wild pigs, as well as domestic hogs. Javelina are in the adjacent family Tayassuidae, which contains only five species, all peccaries, one of which is the one that we call javelina. The family falls between Suidae (true hogs) and Hippopatamidae (two extant species). Rodentia (rodents) are a completely different order and in no way closely related to ungulates.

[billrquimby]

"Pretty sure Jerry Day said their closely related to rodents."

 

I doubt that, unless he was misunderstood when he MIGHT have said something about peccaries having a remote ancestor that somewhere very, very far back in prehistory MAY have gone separate ways with one group evolving into peccaries and others becoming rodents. I don't know if he said that, or even if such a thing happened, but if it did and he did I'm certain he would be the first to say that does not mean they are closely related.

 

I know Jerry, and saw him at a funeral for a mutual friend recently. If you were to ask him about the peccary/rodent myth, he would say something similar to what Benbrown just said: Rodentia and ungulates are in no way closely related.

 

Bill Quimby

[IA Born]

"Pretty sure Jerry Day said their closely related to rodents."

 

I doubt that, unless he was misunderstood when he MIGHT have said something about peccaries having a remote ancestor that somewhere very, very far back in prehistory MAY have gone separate ways with one group evolving into peccaries and others becoming rodents. I don't know if he said that, or even if such a thing happened, but if it did and he did I'm certain he would be the first to say that does not mean they are closely related.

 

I know Jerry, and saw him at a funeral for a mutual friend recently. If you were to ask him about the peccary/rodent myth, he would say something similar to what Benbrown just said: Rodentia and ungulates are in no way closely related.

 

Bill Quimby

 

So I just looked real quick in one of my old vertebrate taxonomy books and the split between rodentia and ungulates was in the Cretaceous Period, over 65 million years ago. I'd say that qualifies as "very, very far back in prehistory", if you believe in that sort of thing.

 

Can we get back to discussing rambilly ewenanny AudadBarbary SheepRams?

[billrquimby]

"Can we get back to discussing rambilly ewenanny AudadBarbary SheepRams?"

 

Those who deny evolution need only to study this thread to see how natural selection resulted in the aoudad evolving into a peccary.

 

I think it's time to mention that early Cervids (deer) had fangs and some may have been carnivorous predators. We could start a pool to see how long it will be before someone says deer, wolves, jaguars and bears are closely related.

 

Bill Quimby

[IA Born]

"Can we get back to discussing rambilly ewenanny AudadBarbary SheepRams?"

 

Those who deny evolution need only to study this thread to see how natural selection resulted in the aoudad evolving into a peccary.

 

I think it's time to mention that early Cervids (deer) had fangs and some may have been carnivorous predators. We could start a pool to see how long it will be before someone says deer, wolves, jaguars and bears are closely related.

 

Bill Quimby

I'm in my kid's school parking lot laughing hysterically! I quit drinking, but first round is on me!

 

It's not just early cervids, there are still fanged deer in Asia! Elk ivories are the vestiges of their fanged days! I like the pool idea! I'll opt out, though, to keep it fair. I have access to all the evolutionary cladograms!

[Non-Typical Solutions]

"Can we get back to discussing rambilly ewenanny AudadBarbary SheepRams?"

 

Those who deny evolution need only to study this thread to see how natural selection resulted in the aoudad evolving into a peccary.

 

I think it's time to mention that early Cervids (deer) had fangs and some may have been carnivorous predators. We could start a pool to see how long it will be before someone says deer, wolves, jaguars and bears are closely related.

 

Bill Quimby

Guilty as charged Bill......I have gotten in more trouble being the son of a pig farmer I swear!!!

[billrquimby]

IA Born:

 

I know about the muntjacs, musk deer, mouse deer and water deer of Asia and the Philippines. As with elk/red deer, both roe deer species also have "ivories." Next time you're near a mount of a moose, elk, mule deer or whitetail, look closely at the dark spot on each side of its lower jaw. Most of the deer in the world today (except reindeer and caribou) have these spots. I'm convinced these also are vestiges of the fangs of their ancestors. When they lost their long "eye teeth," they retained the dark areas where their fangs once were.

 

Bill Quimby