Deer,Predators,and Drought

[25-06]

Hey CHD, You mite want to try crown royal, or just good old beam, or both mixed together to get that special feeling.

[DesertBull]

Looks like a fire forced the release of all of the deer being studied.

 

"A third fire, 1,000 acres in size, the Four Peaks Fire, is burning on the west flank of Four Peaks in the Mesa Ranger District. Due to the imminent threat to a large wildlife study enclosure, firefighters opened the fence around the area to free the enclosed deer. The fire does not pose a threat to any dwellings or businesses."

 

 

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/news/062305b.shtml

[az4life]

Well at least they did nto leave the animals inside the enclosure to see what effect the fire had on them. Sometimes the obvious answer is overlooked until it can be proven.

 

Thanks for the update

[coueshunter]

I typed all this stuff below thinking this was a new thread but am to lazy to erase..........LOL.......Allen.......

 

 

 

 

Couple things everyone should know. I believe ADA has been supporting a professional lion killer, Jim Bedlion on the strip for about 6 years. He has killed alot of cats and the strip is benefiting from this work funded by ADA. The three-bar study has been out for awhile and ADA has been putting pressure on Duane S. to support the data. The results are pretty clear, less predators = More deer, especially in drought situations where the deer pile up close to water sources and the predators pound them. As for the Kaibab: make sure everyone has read the most recent study by Logan Simpson group who ADA funded to do the most recent arial survey and present new alternative ways to manage the herd because the geographic area and food sources can support more deer. I think a ton more pressure on AZGFD will be necessary to get them to really focus on predator control. This will sound strange, but the department doesnt want to come out in support of the actual field results on 3-bar because current wildlife textbook management doesnt support the 3-bar results and changing the management model to AZGFD is "Wrong Game management". Well, I say using common sense is the best approach. We see how well the 3-bar herd is doing so lets kill more predators accross the state and monitor the various herds progress before and after increased predator control. It is a no brainer especially when you have lions walking around in neighborhoods....................Allen..........

[az4life]

I agree with you that AGFD does not want pie on the face? They do move quicker than other burro-cratic agencies but they do seem to have their roots in slow decisions being better than quick ones.

By nature, Burro-crats don't want to upset the balance of anything without figuring all the angles. Most importantly how it makes them look to others. Backing away from a long established game mangement plan has lots of implications . You can bet Shroufe is going to be VERY careful about saying ( an dhow to say it) the department was wrong.

[coueshunter]

What really really pisses me off is that this information that is totally backed up by science has been out and available to AZGFD for some time and Duane S. has not taken it forward and effected any change. Remember predator control as we know it is being funded by conservation groups currently. Maybe we should send millions of emails to AZGFD from grass roots people like us and ask some valid questions. It sure seems that information this critical and fantastic for game management should get out to the average citizen .............Allen Taylor.........

[ultramag]

tell me if i am wrong,but as far as i know their is no deer hunting allowed in the 3bar study area.

so if the study says the deer herd is doing extremly well there,could the antis use that study against hunters.and the game and fish.

sounds like a big can of worms could be opened up.

[DesertBull]

That's what I was thinking too. In the general public's mind, lion's and hunters are both predators.

 

I am not really sure what the G&F could do about lions even if they wanted too, with the current budget situation.

 

Issue a bounty? Take off the bag limits? Legalize night hunting? Do any of those things and there will be a PR nightmare to fight.

 

Maybe one thing that could help is if the various clubs and groups shifted budget $$ from water projects into predator control?

[az4life]

That's what I was thinking too. In the general public's mind, lion's and hunters are both predators.

 

I am not really sure what the G&F could do about lions even if they wanted too, with the current budget situation.

 

Issue a bounty? Take off the bag limits? Legalize night hunting? Do any of those things and there will be a PR nightmare to fight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thins that make you say HMMMMM....

 

They have already increased limits on lions to hopefully ensure a better chance of survival for the soon to be transplanted bighorn sheep in 6a. That said, It Seems like AGFD does have a good understanding predator control when it suits their needs, but they give little credance when it does not suit their plans.

[.270]

i think allen is right about shroufe. he ain't gonna do a thing from now until he retires. he might sign off on things that others lay on his desk, but he's not gonna initiate or follow through with anything. if you put any faith in him or his sprayed on tan or in the commission, you're real misguided. these guys are politicians pure and simple. they're walking the tightrope between the guys that pay the bills (us) and the guys with the most votes (everybody else). i know these positions are all appointed, but they are still subject to politcal pressure. you have to agree to all kindsa stuff before you are appointed to be a commissioner, and very little of it has to do with conservation. azgfd has proven, ever since shroufe was hired, that they have no desire to do anything controversial, especially about predators. they won't stand up to anyone who hollers loudly. look at what happened to the conservation bonus point. a few guys yelled and they dropped it. while i wasn't a big supporter of it, the vast majority of hunters were, and the majority should rule. but a few well connected sheep dudes complained and the commission ran away yelpin' with their tails between their legs. best thing a guy can do on his own is to buy a lion tag and use it. and shoot every coyote you see too. running or standing still, make their life as miserable as you can. don't matter if you just wound em. and vote napalitano out. she's the root of the evil here. give her another term and you can forget about it. she tried real hard to put a died in the wool anti on the commission and backed off and gave us an ex-game warden. that's like having a crook guard crooks in my book. the commission needs to stand alone and be objective. these guys are so involved in the politics and public perception that it's pathetic. they need to be the watchers. they ain't. if napalitano gets another term, it's gonna be bad. i have a feeling that all the gains that were made after the uso suit, like money up front and nonresidents having to buy a license and stuff, are gonna go out the window too. i get sick when i think of the possibilities. Lark.

[coueshunter]

Lark, that is my concern as well. The idiots in upper AZGFD management today are ready to lead a quiet couple years of retirement while we really need them to step up and show us hunters their backbone. I am concerned about extra governors tags given out, concerned about AZGFD looking the other way when it comes to doe tags on the Kaibab and just ignoring predators........sure hope there is no more discussion of landowner tags or this state will look just like colorado especially since the new commisssioner is from there.........hope I am wrong..........Allen.......

[Rembrant]

So what's the answer? Commissioners with balls?

If we do things right, which means the blatent pounding of predators, there will be public outcry. We are not Arizona any more - we are now Calizona - complete with the 9th circus court.

The battle will lead to a referendom. Do you think the general population of Calizona will approve any organized hammering of the states predators?

Remember a number of years back, Proposition 200? The proposal that would allow wildlife issues to move forward with only 1/3 vote (or something like that?)

That was the Game Dept trying to stack the cards in our favor - knowing full well that the general population of the state is now a bunch of ignorant emotional bleeding hearts.

That proposition was shot down by the people of the great state of Calizona.

Were in a mess fellas.

I agree with you completely, Allen and Lark. It's damned frustrating!

Stacking the commission with John Waynes and Charelton Hestons would be the way to go. What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. We should do what's right!

Only problem is nowdays things aren't black and white anymore - it's all grey: killing terrorists is bad, but killing babies is alright. Homosexuals want what they do to be called marraige, and most of the world thinks that's good, and we better throw God out of the schools and courts, 'cause were smarter than He is now!

You guys are right. In this atmosphere the commission is acting like a bunch of pussys.

So what's the answer? Can courageous leaders prevail? Let's hope so.

We've got one in the Whitehouse.

Mike

[ultramag]

rembrant thats what i was trying to say.i agree completely.calizona you need not say any more.

[KGAINES]

Well said rembrandt

[25-06]

Rembrant, You said it all....