.270 Report post Posted July 23, 2010 mr johnathon, that isn't my opinion, that is what i was told on the phone and in writing, many times, by a game biologist that was doing a survey on lions on the strip. go back and look up the hunts. they had to completely do away with deer hunting on the strip for awhile. then when they started again there were only 30 permits for several years. for whatever reason, the lion population got to a critical stage and they literally ate their way outta house and home. the biologist tried to get the game and fish to allow non resident outfitters north of the grand canyon and to have a 2 lion limit to entice folks to hunt there. at the time non resident outfitters couldn't get a license in Az and with the location of the strip being a lot closer to residents of utah and nevada, he felt they should allow them. he also wanted a 2 lion limit to further entice folks to hunt there and so that they would be able to shoot more lions. the funny thing about the deal was that this biologist was more concerned about the welfare of the lions than he was the deer. he wanted a buncha lions shot, so the deer herd would come back, so the lions would have something to eat and hopefully things would stabilize. he hired a lion hunter to catch lions for him to study. he said that almost everyone they caught was in poor health and underweight. some were very ill and couldn't even climb a tree. from what he said it was a pretty sad deal. these guys were real concerned about it. this has been over 20 years ago and i can't remember for sure but i think that the azgfd finally did allow the nonresident outfitters and the 2 lion limit. but it was after the damage had been done. i don't just spout off crap. i might real opinionated but i ain't gonna lie about stuff. i contacted these guys because i'd heard about the excess lions and wanted to take a trip and do some hunting. the biologist also told me he was actively looking for another job because he was pretty tired of talking to deaf ears. don't know if he ever found one or not. i'm not about to print his name either. you ever hear of ted riggs? he knew a "little" about the strip. he had been raising heck about lions and coyotes on the strip for years before this. but i guess maybe ted didnn't know what he was talking about either. the strip lion problem is very well documented and anyone who knows the strip knows what it did to it. bad deal. i don't have a problem with lions. not one. they are incredibly adaptable and sneaky. you're not gonna kill em all unless you pave the state. i have a problem with the azgfd taking away opportunity from the guys that pay the bills in order to make nice with the enemy. and there was back room deals involved in this loss of opportunity. and what clb said is about as anti hunter as anything i've ever read here. completely irresponsible. hold on, the jags are next. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Azlongears Report post Posted July 23, 2010 Well said Mr. Jonathan, very well said. So Larkster, Before the 80's and G and F who kept all these game populations in check? Perhaps the wildlife species took care of themselves. We give ourselves FAR to much credit with our influences on this planet, look at the Global Warming issue, good grief. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
25-06 Report post Posted July 23, 2010 Glad to see Lark getting along so well with others Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outdoor Writer Report post Posted July 23, 2010 Accidental!!!! Come on!!! There are more then one way to kill a cat I don't think any of them come by"accidents"!!! I can't speak to it fer shure, but he might have meant "incidental" -- happening as a chance consequence, not the major reason. IOW, if a guy is out there hunting deer during a deer season and kills a lion that walks by, etc., it is incidental to his deer hunt. OTOH, if he goes out specifically to hunt a lion and kills one, it is an intentional consequence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
clb Report post Posted July 24, 2010 Lets see some opinions You are out walking with you family on a trail and see two small lions like these sitting 30 ft away. both about 40 lbs with no spots they are legal to take. You happen to have a pistol with you that you brought for personal pertection and your tag in you wallet because thats were you always keep it. what do you do? A. shot one B. take pics and leave them alone ( Is this being a ANTI HUNTER or a Sportsmen) and wait for another chance at another lion I am just talking about these lions not a large adult lion that I would understand being shot. Also would this be a accidental kill or not lion_2010.bmp Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outdoor Writer Report post Posted July 24, 2010 >>Also would this be a accidental kill or not<< Only if you're shooting at a tree, miss and kill the lion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple Hunter Report post Posted July 24, 2010 Lets see some opinions You are out walking with you family on a trail and see two small lions like these sitting 30 ft away. both about 40 lbs with no spots they are legal to take. You happen to have a pistol with you that you brought for personal pertection and your tag in you wallet because thats were you always keep it. what do you do? A. shot one B. take pics and leave them alone ( Is this being a ANTI HUNTER or a Sportsmen) and wait for another chance at another lion I am just talking about these lions not a large adult lion that I would understand being shot. Also would this be a accidental kill or not CLB, you are dangeroulsy close to opening that dialogue on thresholds that has occurred on this forum before. A lion killed with a legal tag is hunting regardless of pursuit. Occassionally yahoos come on this site suggesting that we should have a minimum point threshold on bucks before they are harvested. There are also those of us who detest road hunting, but nevertheless it is a way of life and tradition for some families. Hunting is different for everyone. The reality is that you houndsmen have competition and will have to get used to it. I don't always have a lion tag in my pocket - but 2 seasons ago I picked up a lot of cats on my trail cameras and so I purchased one for my deer hunt. Simple as that - I was pursuing deer and lion and I got both. Next time I see a lion - I will not pursue myself, but I will get on the phone to a couple of good houndsmen down south and see if they want to chase...or when my kids are old enough will let them have an opportunity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outdoor Writer Report post Posted July 24, 2010 Well, I can hardly even see the lions in the photo, but if they are spotted kittens, I wouldn't be shooting. Now...if I could make them out better in person and saw they are bobcats rather than lions, I might pop one or both of them. Regardless, shooting one would be an intentional act and not an accidental act. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cactusjack Report post Posted July 24, 2010 My wife has informed that size doesn't really matter However I will answer your question with a question " if you are hunting javelina in the January archery season, you have a deer tag in your wallet next to your bear and lion tags that you buy ever year, you get a 40 yard shot at a fork coues deer. You have never, ever, ever taken a deer with your bow, do you take it or do you take a picture?" If I am following all the laws governing legal methods of take, and following safe firearm procedures, why would another hunter have a problem with either scenario? Not accidental, but remarkable! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outdoor Writer Report post Posted July 24, 2010 you have a deer tag in your wallet next to your bear and lion tags that you buy ever year, you get a 40 yard shot at a fork coues deer. That's not quite the same. Better analogy to the spotted kittens would be a spotted fawn rather than the forkie. I'd bet the farm most hunters would pass, regardless of what they have killed or not killed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cactusjack Report post Posted July 24, 2010 read it again. he said "no spots" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outdoor Writer Report post Posted July 24, 2010 read it again. he said "no spots" Whoops, you're correct. I missed the "no" the first time around. Anyway, for me I still wouldn't be shooting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cactusjack Report post Posted July 24, 2010 no problem, I'm just not right very often. I probably wouldn't either however if someone did, good for them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sly Report post Posted July 25, 2010 Lark, your getting all worked up again. Thats 2 days in a row. Don't let ignorance draw you in, listen to that comment again and you will roll over on your back with giggles. Just like TJ said. If i have a tag in my pocket and it's open season then I'm actively persuing the kitty. Besides, how does one demonstrate "activley pursuance". Hmmmm must have to have hounds. If you think about it the general hunters are far less likely to corner a cat than one that has the dogs doing the work for ya! If I am out deer hunting and find a lion and have a tag in my pocket i will shoot one. But i also have hounds, and for all you guys who think its easy and the hounds do all the work and tree a lion for you think again. go out and get your own pack of hound and see how hard and time consuming it is. You will have a respect for lions and houndsmen. i have shot all the big game species except bighorn, buffalo, and antelope and a lion has been the hardest for me mentally and physically. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shawn Report post Posted July 25, 2010 Lets see some opinions You are out walking with you family on a trail and see two small lions like these sitting 30 ft away. both about 40 lbs with no spots they are legal to take. You happen to have a pistol with you that you brought for personal pertection and your tag in you wallet because thats were you always keep it. what do you do? A. shot one B. take pics and leave them alone ( Is this being a ANTI HUNTER or a Sportsmen) and wait for another chance at another lion I am just talking about these lions not a large adult lion that I would understand being shot. Also would this be a accidental kill or not If not in a picnic area I would shoot one then give the pistol to my daughter to shoot the other! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
