Where do we go from here?

[.270]

this paragraph says a lot: States agencies get a cut of the money, but just how much varies from state to state. The money is big, but accountability is poor. The tags essentially give the rich a chance to cut to the front of the line and avoid the rules others must abide by.

 

 

i find it real intersting that guys like pbj, who are out beating the sfw drum to no end, say they never heard of this guy. one of their own. a guy who got rewarded with a real nice job and then turned around got pinched by the very department that he presided over. can anyone else see the irony here? i'm sure pbj and the other sfw guys will say, this is just one guy. this isn't "just" one guy. this guy was tied in with sfw so tight it ain't funny. he used that relationship to get appointed to be the boss of alaskan hunting, then used that job to give permits, that are the crown jewel of alaskan hunting, back to the rich guys that pulled the strings to get him appointed and now those same guys say they never heard of this situation. this is "their" guy. hand picked by sfw. he is their boy, and now their problem. sfw is a buncha crooks. liars and thieves. we narrowly averted this same situation here. so far we haven't had sfw pick a director for us. but they are trying hard to get set up to pick the comissioners. folks need to be aware of the possibilities of the situation. do you want Az to end up where utah and alaska are now? i wonder how many other states these guys are getting ready to rape, pillage and plunder the wildlife? be vigilant fellers. we may not have a lotta money, but we have a lotta guys and a lotta muscle and sfw and folks who support em need to understand that. Lark.

[bonuspointjohn]

this paragraph says a lot: States agencies get a cut of the money, but just how much varies from state to state. The money is big, but accountability is poor. The tags essentially give the rich a chance to cut to the front of the line and avoid the rules others must abide by.

 

 

i find it real intersting that guys like pbj, who are out beating the sfw drum to no end, say they never heard of this guy. one of their own. a guy who got rewarded with a real nice job and then turned around got pinched by the very department that he presided over. can anyone else see the irony here? i'm sure pbj and the other sfw guys will say, this is just one guy. this isn't "just" one guy. this guy was tied in with sfw so tight it ain't funny. he used that relationship to get appointed to be the boss of alaskan hunting, then used that job to give permits, that are the crown jewel of alaskan hunting, back to the rich guys that pulled the strings to get him appointed and now those same guys say they never heard of this situation. this is "their" guy. hand picked by sfw. he is their boy, and now their problem. sfw is a buncha crooks. liars and thieves. we narrowly averted this same situation here. so far we haven't had sfw pick a director for us. but they are trying hard to get set up to pick the comissioners. folks need to be aware of the possibilities of the situation. do you want Az to end up where utah and alaska are now? i wonder how many other states these guys are getting ready to rape, pillage and plunder the wildlife? be vigilant fellers. we may not have a lotta money, but we have a lotta guys and a lotta muscle and sfw and folks who support em need to understand that. Lark.

Hello Lark. "Beating the Drum"?... I have not endorsed any group, I have stated that I did not even know of the Alaska SFW and yet you attempt to paint anyone who differs from your opinion as an elitist rich snob who is raping and pillaging the wildlife of AZ. I will leave it to the readers of the threads to determine what they want to believe. For the record. I have not endorsed or promoted or banged the drum for anyone.

[.270]

Now that's the best one you've told yet. What is all this justification about then? Telling us about gross misunderstandings and such. Sfw and their cronies are liars and thieves. Luckily Az got wind of your shenanagins before you got your tags. Go work a banquet. Lark.

[runningbird]

BPJ is there a reason that you won't tell who gave the preliminary overview of the proposed bill? Or are others correct that all involved with this just assume it will all go away if the sportsmen don't know the truth?

[audsley]

Archerycrazy,

 

The ALIS could become a very useful tool, but I don't believe it's near enough. For one thing, anyone can pose as a sportsman and use ALIS to demand a jaguar recovery zone or a Mexican gray wolf under every tree. And as we've seen, there's a wide variety of opinions, focus and background knowledge even among legitimate sportsmen. I'm convinced the expression "herding cats" was coined by someone trying to work with hunters and anglers. ALIS might prove to be a tool for confusing legislators instead of informing them.

 

Thom C. asked why sportsmen should need only one group to represent us instead of several. I'll allow that two or maybe even three might work, but I think if it gets to be any more than that, public officials and the public will be getting confusing and often conflicting messages. In recent years, government officials and the press have been hearing from not only AZSFW but also the NRA and Arizona Wildlife Federation, all three claiming to represent sportsmen but not necessarily bringing the same message. I'd hate to see things get more complicated and confusing than they already are.

 

It's good that Arizona sportsmen stood up to defend their territory, but no one has done anything yet to be proud of. It doesn't take much to demolish something. Replacing AZSFW with an organization that can earn and keep the widespread support of the state's sportsmen would be a true achievement. That's what is urgently needed now, and I haven't seen anyone stepping up.

 

I'm convinced that AZSFW is a dead group walking, and I hope for their sake and everyone else's that its principals realize that and won't try to keep operating under that flag. That said, I hope everyone will welcome the participation of individual AZSFW alumni in any future organization that might develop. (That very much includes Bonus Point John.) I believe they felt their intentions were good, and the people in the sportsmen's conservation groups are among the best informed about sportsmen's issues. Purging everyone who was associated with AZSFW would deprive any future group of considerable knowledge and expertise. We don't want to be like the Iraqis who, after purging all Baath party members from their jobs following the US invasion, found there was no one left on the job who knew how to run their public works systems, hospitals, and so on, and had to bring them back.

 

Now let's get back to money. I estimate it would take at least $100,000 a year to do a good job of sportsmen's advocacy. That would be a half or 3/4 time lobbyist at the legislature, allow some money for contracting with national groups (i.e., US Sportsman's Alliance) to work federal issues and handle communication with members, the press and the public. It's clear that the state's sportsmen conservation groups do not want to put large sums year after year for this purpose, but I believe smaller donations of $500 - $1,000 a year might fly. Given 20 sportsmen's groups donating in that range, you'd have $10,000 - $20,000 a year. Where would the remaining $80,000 to $90,000 come from? If just 5% of the state's resident hunt/fish or general hunting license holders (about 130,000 sportsmen) chipped in $10 a year, you'd have another $65,000. Now if only there was some volunteer entity that would assume responsibility for collecting the money via internet and keeping track of memberships electronically... someone we trust... maybe some sportsmen's website.... hmmmm..... Just thinking out loud. Is there a leader in the house?

[bonuspointjohn]

BPJ is there a reason that you won't tell who gave the preliminary overview of the proposed bill? Or are others correct that all involved with this just assume it will all go away if the sportsmen don't know the truth?

For what it is worth, I have contacted the board of the AZSFW and given them the insight from the CWT. Some of the board had heard of the less than pleasant terms utilized to describe the bill, the proponents etc. After reading your message, I made a phone call to the AZSFW and asked what the intentions would be in terms of responding. The direct response is that they have listened to a lot of criticism, complaints and suggestions. There will be a statement forthcoming within the next 10 days that will hopefully address all of the comments and questions. In terms of "telling", I have to admit to a certain degree of being a cranky old stubborn individual who has always balked at being told by anyone to do anything. I know that no one feels this issue will go away if sportsmen do not know the truth. I feel that the sportsmen of AZ do deserve to understand the genesis of what happened and that it is the responsibility of those who created it to expound. Sad to say, but because of time limitations, direct and indirect threats to myself and others, this will be my last post. ( yeah, I know, I have taken the bait before). I sincerely hope that the response satisfies most of your questions. Regards as always. BPJ

[.270]

well..........bye. Lark.

[elkaholic]

so who's gonna tell us where the ADA stands -as a group - on the issue of continuing to support the azsfw??

 

has that question ever been answered ? so far as most of us are concerned azsfw and azsfwc still have the same people in charge !!

 

Not to be telling you anything but we as Arizona hunters/sportsmen want you as president of the ADA to answer this question or at least get someone to answer so we can decide if we want to continue our support of the ADA.

[runningbird]

All I asked is who gave the preliminary report? No big deal, why the secrets? You have made quite a statement in terms of where the ADA stands. It is all a secret and the public does not deserve to know the truth. Yet you expect sportsmen to support you and your group. and you claim to represent us all.

[Chef]

I strongly urge anyone and everyone who wants to know the stance of the ADA on this or any issue, to go to their next board meeting. It is always open to the public and the transparecy is always there. This doesn't go for just the ADA either.

 

I really hope that people that are vocal with their opinions and questions are also willing to show up and contribute. Believe me, simply asking questiions and raising topics at a meeting is a good start.

 

The people that listen are there. They have been begging for input from the public for years. Volunteers are hard to come by and recruitment has dropped with the economy. Be a fresh face with passion and drive to assist with direction and operation of the organization. Maybe come back here and give us updates. (?)

[krp]

Money? well the orgs and business sponsors 'give' AZSFW 44,000 in dues plus whatever else they give and encourage their membership to join or donate. That's money SFW uses to lobby with. I'm sure the orgs bring to sfw over 50,000, closer to 75,000... just keep it and utilize it yourself.

 

The organizations created this problem, they took a huge gamble on the sfw name, there's been testimony they weight that risk... the public has remained leery and for good reason, we've experienced the reason.

 

Quit the 'you victims deserved to be victimized because they wouldn't give it up easy' spiel... Some of us aren't victims, just reactionaries with a purpose.

 

The orgs must clean house before asking us to trust and bail them out.

 

Kent

[.270]

yeah but kent, ya hafta remember that we are like the iraqis who ran off all o' saddaam's loyalists, not realizing how important those backstabbin', murderin' rats really were. we're too dumb to realize how smart these guys really are and we need them to lead out us out of the darkness. even tho they tried the big tag grab and failed, we should trust them to run a different organization that this time, will definitely not try something like that again. just because they won't answer a few simple questions, is no reason to suspect anybody is gonna try to slip in another tag grab. all i need to know is where to send the check. i've seen the light. when i was told i was just like saddams's buddies, it really cleared things up. i don't know about the rest o' you morons, but now i'm a member of the baath mob. and proud of it. Lark.

[archerycrazy]

I strongly urge anyone and everyone who wants to know the stance of the ADA on this or any issue, to go to their next board meeting. It is always open to the public and the transparecy is always there. This doesn't go for just the ADA either.

 

I really hope that people that are vocal with their opinions and questions are also willing to show up and contribute. Believe me, simply asking questiions and raising topics at a meeting is a good start.

 

The people that listen are there. They have been begging for input from the public for years. Volunteers are hard to come by and recruitment has dropped with the economy. Be a fresh face with passion and drive to assist with direction and operation of the organization. Maybe come back here and give us updates. (?)

[krp]

Meaning no insult to anyone but...

 

I have no desire to get into the orgs political/funding business, unless they get into mine or attempt to represent me in a fashion that I 'expressly' disagree with, I can deal with minimal disagreement or neutral. I work on catchment and jr hunt camps that are independent and understand the issues. I spend a some hundreds of bucks a year in supplies, transport, whatever... plus many days in the field making sure jr hunters have a positive experience at the start of their hunting life. Some is at the camps but more is just word of mouth connecting me to originally strangers to help their child, all have become friends... I spend more time and money than I can really afford but it must be done. I also sometimes do little donation things to help, cook for a gettogether or such, whatever money I raise is what I have to spend... that's reality.

 

I have no time or funds left for a group... an org for some is the only way help... ok ... just work within your funds and control your leadership... I'm not a part of you, or to blame for you short falls.

 

This isn't Wall street or GM where if you are failing financially you get bailed out by a public stimulus.

 

Kent

[archerycrazy]

Chef,

 

You've got to be kidding us. Do you actually expect those of us on this forum to drive to Phoenix at $3.45 a gallon in order to get an answer to a simple question. RunningBird asked "Who provided the preliminary briefing". A pretty simple question, unless there is something to hide.

 

If I got 200 mpg, I might consider it, but for the hours on the road. What precentage of your membership actually shows up for your meetings? How far do they travel? All I can say now is, answer the question.

 

It now appears that ADA is in trouble due to the support of it's leadership for HB 2072 the Weiers memo and a misguided attempt at damage control. If a mistake was made it's best to admit it and work from there.

 

Does the majority of the ADA membership support the efforts of the leadership?

 

The transparency that you claim is obvious at ADA meetings sure hasn't appeared on this forum.

 

George