plumbing help

[trophyseeker]

My son needs to replace the gate valve as seen in the photo. It's all 1" copper under the paint with sweated joints and no flex to it The problem is there isn't a union where he can separate anything that will allow any flexibility to remove and solder in a new valve. Obviously he can cut the pipe and replace the valve, but then he has to put it together again with something.

He thought he might be able to buy a new gate valve of the exact kind and maybe just replace the valve part if it comes apart that way.

Anyone have a sensible suggestion other than call a $100-hr. plumber?

[5guyshunting]

Cut one side. Dig down to gain some flexibility. Heat valve and pull it off. Buy new ball valve a coupler that will slide completely over pipe and a short piece of 1" copper. Solder back together.

[Eagle mountain ranch]

 Definitely get a ball value,and  not another gate valve .

[PRDATR]

He should be able to back the nut off and replace the packing. That's where gate and globe valves usually leak at. Unions cost money and will eventually leak too so they are a rarity is this type of application.

[Snapshot]

Rebuild the gate valve if you can find the parts.

If you have to replace it, plumbing supply companies have special adapters for doing splices on rigid copper. Take the photo, and tell them what you are trying to do.

If you end up replacing it, when you shut the main water off, you will have to suck some of the water out of the lower pipe with a shop vac, or you won't be able to sweat the new valve on. The water will boil, and you won't be able to get enough heat on the pipe too melt the solder.

You can try digging down far enough to see if there is a 90 degree elbow, and start from there and go up.

[Flatlander]

I have done dozens of these, never a fun chore and there is no easy way to go about it. 

1. Remove all paint and expose bare copper.

2. Cut the pipe aboveor below one end of the valve. 

3. Dig around the pipe coming out of the ground to provide some give in the pipe.

4. Apply heat and flux to the soldered end of the valve until you can wiggle it loose. (As stated before, if you are un-soldering the bottom hub of the valve you will need to vacuum out the water through the valve with a shop-vac, I sometimes tape a straw to the end of the vacuum hose to be able to get down inside of the pipe)

5. With the gate valve removed clean up the two ends of the pipe until they are shiny round copper. Often times the copper coming out of the ground is rolled copper and will be elongated from being curled from horizontal to vertical. If this is the case, it will need to be rounded before the new ball valve will fit.

6. Cut a short piece of pipe and a slip / no-stop coupling and fit them plus the ball valve into the gap created by the cuts performed earlier. Be sure to vacuum all the water out of the pipe before dry fitting new assembly.

7. Mark the pipes so that the slip coupling can be slid into place after the pipes are dry fitted together. Slide the slip coupling flush with the new pipe and fit the short length of pipe and new ball valve into place. Slide the slip coupling into the marked position.

8. Solder all joints, allow to cool for 15 minutes and test by turning the water on.

[5guyshunting]

7 minutes ago, Flatlander said:

I have done dozens of these, never a fun chore and there is no easy way to go about it. 

1. Remove all paint and expose bare copper.

2. Cut the pipe aboveor below one end of the valve. 

3. Dig around the pipe coming out of the ground to provide some give in the pipe.

4. Apply heat and flux to the soldered end of the valve until you can wiggle it loose. (As stated before, if you are un-soldering the bottom hub of the valve you will need to vacuum out the water through the valve with a shop-vac, I sometimes tape a straw to the end of the vacuum hose to be able to get down inside of the pipe)

5. With the gate valve removed clean up the two ends of the pipe until they are shiny round copper. Often times the copper coming out of the ground is rolled copper and will be elongated from being curled from horizontal to vertical. If this is the case, it will need to be rounded before the new ball valve will fit.

6. Cut a short piece of pipe and a slip / no-stop coupling and fit them plus the ball valve into the gap created by the cuts performed earlier. Be sure to vacuum all the water out of the pipe before dry fitting new assembly.

7. Mark the pipes so that the slip coupling can be slid into place after the pipes are dry fitted together. Slide the slip coupling flush with the new pipe and fit the short length of pipe and new ball valve into place. Slide the slip coupling into the marked position.

8. Solder all joints, allow to cool for 15 minutes and test by turning the water on.

Thats what i said. Your long version is a bit better though.😏

[trophyseeker]

46 minutes ago, Flatlander said:

I have done dozens of these, never a fun chore and there is no easy way to go about it. 

1. Remove all paint and expose bare copper.

2. Cut the pipe aboveor below one end of the valve. 

3. Dig around the pipe coming out of the ground to provide some give in the pipe.

4. Apply heat and flux to the soldered end of the valve until you can wiggle it loose. (As stated before, if you are un-soldering the bottom hub of the valve you will need to vacuum out the water through the valve with a shop-vac, I sometimes tape a straw to the end of the vacuum hose to be able to get down inside of the pipe)

5. With the gate valve removed clean up the two ends of the pipe until they are shiny round copper. Often times the copper coming out of the ground is rolled copper and will be elongated from being curled from horizontal to vertical. If this is the case, it will need to be rounded before the new ball valve will fit.

6. Cut a short piece of pipe and a slip / no-stop coupling and fit them plus the ball valve into the gap created by the cuts performed earlier. Be sure to vacuum all the water out of the pipe before dry fitting new assembly.

7. Mark the pipes so that the slip coupling can be slid into place after the pipes are dry fitted together. Slide the slip coupling flush with the new pipe and fit the short length of pipe and new ball valve into place. Slide the slip coupling into the marked position.

8. Solder all joints, allow to cool for 15 minutes and test by turning the water on.

That's about what we had figured we might have to do.

I also found an alternate on youtube that will work without needing the flexibility in the pipe. Involves using a ball valve with 1" FNPT threads, two 1" MNPT/Fsweat fittings, two short pieces of 1" pipe and two no-stop 1" couplings. That way we can cut out just about the same length of pipe and slip the replacement assembly (about 8" long) in with the two couplings all the way back on the short stubs coming out of the valve. Once in place, it's easy to just slide the couplings over the other ends. Then it would require soldering both ends of each coupling rather than the valve itself.

Thank you and everyone else for the help.

 

[trophyseeker]

3 hours ago, PRDATR said:

He should be able to back the nut off and replace the packing. That's where gate and globe valves usually leak at. Unions cost money and will eventually leak too so they are a rarity is this type of application.

It's not leaking at the packing nut. It won't shut off the water fully, so it's likely corroded inside the housing at the gate.

[Flatlander]

4 hours ago, trophyseeker said:

It's not leaking at the packing nut. It won't shut off the water fully, so it's likely corroded inside the housing at the gate.

Be dang careful turning it off in the mean time, it likely to shear off in the closed position and then you are stuck repacking it right then. Gate valves are famous for this.

Also the dual slip joint method is nice when it fits, however because of the elongated shape of rolled copper it often is not feasible for AZ applications.

[trophyseeker]

9 hours ago, Flatlander said:

Be dang careful turning it off in the mean time, it likely to shear off in the closed position and then you are stuck repacking it right then. Gate valves are famous for this.

Also the dual slip joint method is nice when it fits, however because of the elongated shape of rolled copper it often is not feasible for AZ applications.

Right, I understand the bit about the elongated shape. I was also looking at the method in the video I posted. It seems we could use a ball valve with sweat joints and just solder in a short pipe stub the length of a coupling to each side. Then all we need to do is cut out a portion of the existing configuation the length of that total assembly and solder the four coupling joints. Sound doable?

[Flatlander]

4 hours ago, trophyseeker said:

Right, I understand the bit about the elongated shape. I was also looking at the method in the video I posted. It seems we could use a ball valve with sweat joints and just solder in a short pipe stub the length of a coupling to each side. Then all we need to do is cut out a portion of the existing configuation the length of that total assembly and solder the four coupling joints. Sound doable?

Yes. It’s do-able, as long as there is enough good strategy got pipe to make your connections to.

 In the video the vertical length of pipe is rigid pipe and perfectly straight. In AZ that riser is often lower to the ground and rolled copper.

Give it a go and let us know how it turns out.

[trophyseeker]

24 minutes ago, Flatlander said:

Yes. It’s do-able, as long as there is enough good strategy got pipe to make your connections to.

 In the video the vertical length of pipe is rigid pipe and perfectly straight. In AZ that riser is often lower to the ground and rolled copper.

Give it a go and let us know how it turns out.

Will do. Thanks again for the help.