Holdovers versus Come-Ups.

[Steve123]

??? 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Steve123
posted twice - very odd and I can't seem to delete this one??

[Steve123]

13 hours ago, 10Turkeys said:

Steve 123,  sorry to point this out, but this being a hunting forum not a shooting forum. How do you think a once or twice a year shooter is going to be able to handle a reticle like this on his Deer rifle,  on a 80lb Coues at say 600 yards.

 

I thought this was appropriate subject matter since this is the "long range forum" and a "holdovers vs dialing" thread??!!

BTW Horus reticles were originally designed for long range donkey hunting in Australia (invasive species with a bounty on them) because the inventor was having trouble getting enough time to dial his scope before the animals disappeared into the landscape. No I don't work for or are affiliated in any way with Horus.  

We all have our skill sets and or ability levels - so of course I would expect anyone reading my post to understand where they are at personally in this regard. That's why I mentioned this - "Get a good reticle,""""""practice practice practice your holdovers""""""""", and a 500Y shot on a deer or antelope will be a chip shot.

A reticle provides information, from that of a single aiming point like a simple crosshair, to the H59 in the image above. Yes that info needs to be learned and there are plenty of resources on the internet to do so.

DIALING - People don't always dial correctly do they???, I've misdialed, and have seen people make this mistake on many occasions. Stress, in match shooting or in a hunting situation makes making this mistake even more likely. 

HOLDOVERS/HOLDOFFS - Here's some things I didn't mention that can be an advantage when using the reticle for holdovers/holdoffs.

#1 It takes time to dial. You have to take your attention off the target/animal to dial your dope, resettle and find the T/A again. The T/A could have moved or the wind could have changed while you did all this.

#2 If you were holding, you would have "THAT" extra time you used to dial ^^ to find the T/A in the FOV, build a more steady position, have more time to think about what the wind is doing, and get in a well executed shot quicker. It could mean the difference between filling your tag or not! 

#3 For me, I used those hash marks in the H59 to measure where I hit, or missed, from POA to POI, and compensated for the next shot if need be. 

BDC reticles - These don't always line up with the trajectory accurately with peoples rifles and loads, especially past 300Y. BDC's provide approximations.

Like Lobo mentioned there are a number of considerations when taking a long range shot, one is having a good enough range finder to get an accurate distance reading on a less reflective target. Others are altitude, station pressure, temperature, slope angle, wind angle and speed, past these, one must somehow build a steady position within the circumstances of the shot. Also what level of precision is your rifle and load capable of, do you know your exact velocity and BC, do your turrets track correctly and is your reticle true???

Just things to think about.

Some of the guys reading this might be interested to know that effective practice with everything I mentioned above can be done with a pellet gun or 22rf. A major reason why I was able to win that longe range series is because I practiced with PCP air rifles, NO I'm not BS-ing. My S&B 5-25 PM2 has a 10 meter close focusing feature on it and it's actually why I bought it in the first place! With this scope mounted on one of the PCP's I used to own, I shot my highest finish in Field Target air rifle, relative to my next closest competitor, I got a 58/60, which was 12 points above 2nd place. Doesn't sound like much but it is. Pellets blow like crazy in the wind so air rifles are fantastic for learning about wind! 

That same S&B is now mounted on my Anschutz 22rf, both of which have won me a bunch of matches. I do quite a bit of holding over in NRL22 type matches. On a stage in the last match I won, my good friend dialed for the long range stage which caused him to take too much time to get off good shots. I heldover and off and won the stage. He finished 2nd in the match.

But to back up a bit. I dial as much as I holdover, it all depends on the situation I'm in and what I feel is most beneficial at the moment. 

My BIL is one of those once a year hunters. Within 5 minutes of teaching him holdovers in that H59 I had him hitting prairie dogs out to 450Y. Many of them head shots around 250Y-300Y. So it's not difficult to learn this stuff.

[loboscout]

10 minutes ago, Steve123 said:

 

I thought this was appropriate subject matter since this is the "long range forum" and a "holdovers vs dialing" thread??!!

BTW Horus reticles were originally designed for long range donkey hunting in Australia (invasive species with a bounty on them) because the inventor was having trouble getting enough time to dial his scope before the animals disappeared into the landscape. No I don't work for or are affiliated in any way with Horus.  

We all have our skill sets and or ability levels - so of course I would expect anyone reading my post to understand where they are at personally in this regard. That's why I mentioned this - "Get a good reticle,""""""practice practice practice your holdovers""""""""", and a 500Y shot on a deer or antelope will be a chip shot.

A reticle provides information, from that of a single aiming point like a simple crosshair, to the H59 in the image above. Yes that info needs to be learned and there are plenty of resources on the internet to do so.

DIALING - People don't always dial correctly do they???, I've misdialed, and have seen people make this mistake on many occasions. Stress, in match shooting or in a hunting situation makes making this mistake even more likely. 

HOLDOVERS/HOLDOFFS - Here's some things I didn't mention that can be an advantage when using the reticle for holdovers/holdoffs.

#1 It takes time to dial. You have to take your attention off the target/animal to dial your dope, resettle and find the T/A again. The T/A could have moved or the wind could have changed while you did all this.

#2 If you were holding, you would have "THAT" extra time you used to dial ^^ to find the T/A in the FOV, build a more steady position, have more time to think about what the wind is doing, and get in a well executed shot quicker. It could mean the difference between filling your tag or not! 

#3 For me, I used those hash marks in the H59 to measure where I hit, or missed, from POA to POI, and compensated for the next shot if need be. 

BDC reticles - These don't always line up with the trajectory accurately with peoples rifles and loads, especially past 300Y. BDC's provide approximations.

Like Lobo mentioned there are a number of considerations when taking a long range shot, one is having a good enough range finder to get an accurate distance reading on a less reflective target. Others are altitude, station pressure, temperature, slope angle, wind angle and speed, past these, one must somehow build a steady position within the circumstances of the shot. Also what level of precision is your rifle and load capable of, do you know your exact velocity and BC, do your turrets track correctly and is your reticle true???

Just things to think about.

Some of the guys reading this might be interested to know that effective practice with everything I mentioned above can be done with a pellet gun or 22rf. A major reason why I was able to win that longe range series is because I practiced with PCP air rifles, NO I'm not BS-ing. My S&B 5-25 PM2 has a 10 meter close focusing feature on it and it's actually why I bought it in the first place! With this scope mounted on one of the PCP's I used to own, I shot my highest finish in Field Target air rifle, relative to my next closest competitor, I got a 58/60, which was 12 points above 2nd place. Doesn't sound like much but it is. Pellets blow like crazy in the wind so air rifles are fantastic for learning about wind! 

That same S&B is now mounted on my Anschutz 22rf, both of which have won me a bunch of matches. I do quite a bit of holding over in NRL22 type matches. On a stage in the last match I won, my good friend dialed for the long range stage which caused him to take too much time to get off good shots. I heldover and off and won the stage. He finished 2nd in the match.

But to back up a bit. I dial as much as I holdover, it all depends on the situation I'm in and what I feel is most beneficial at the moment. 

My BIL is one of those once a year hunters. Within 5 minutes of teaching him holdovers in that H59 I had him hitting prairie dogs out to 450Y. Many of them head shots around 250Y-300Y. So it's not difficult to learn this stuff.

Agree wholeheartedly.

Aiming with holding over is stupid simple to learn. I have had similar experiences. Though they typically need more instruction to make it useful innthe field alone and without the immediate knowledge the experienced shooter has.

It ain't surgery, but it is kinda like rocket science. The biggest problem is misinformation and ignorance. 

I love shooting my .22 lr out to 300 yards and more. Yup, it it great training. I have to dial AND hold, lol.

[Steve123]

7 minutes ago, loboscout said:

Agree wholeheartedly.

Aiming with holding over is stupid simple to learn. I have had similar experiences. Though they typically need more instruction to make it useful innthe field alone and without the immediate knowledge the experienced shooter has.

It ain't surgery, but it is kinda like rocket science. The biggest problem is misinformation and ignorance. 

I love shooting my .22 lr out to 300 yards and more. Yup, it it great training. I have to dial AND hold, lol.

I just now watched your video, That's a super nice hunting rifle set up and you made a great shot!

You look familiar, do you go to Rusty's PRS/NRL practice matches. Or maybe it was Christophers match at Wikieup? Maybe we should take this to PM.

Yeah it's mostly familiarisation, and practice, but instruction certainly speeds up the learning process.  

[loboscout]

1 hour ago, Steve123 said:

I just now watched your video, That's a super nice hunting rifle set up and you made a great shot!

You look familiar, do you go to Rusty's PRS/NRL practice matches. Or maybe it was Christophers match at Wikieup? Maybe we should take this to PM.

Yeah it's mostly familiarisation, and practice, but instruction certainly speeds up the learning process.  

Thanks! I had over 20 minutes setting up that shot, controlling breathing, checking and rechecking wind, dry fire, etc. I had 100% confidence in the shot. My buddy was trying to convince me to let him stand up broadside and wait for the shot. I said nah, I got this. It was a steady breeze, easy wind call. I had plenty of room on elevation, so once wind was called, I was ready to send it. I could have held or dialed, but dialing is "a little more accurate".

I'll post this one and PM you my phone to carry on off the subject. I would love to go shoot, I really am still a newbie, and see what others are doing.

I did a little over a year of the Cowtown PRS when it restarted there. I went to one of the first AZ long range challenge with Justin Martinez and Keith Bishop. I am active in long range forums on Facebook, including Rusty's page, but still haven't made it up there. I donated some bags to the most recent match. It has been a while since I made any match. These days, I prefer to go on a hike and shoot at rocks in field positions as if I was hunting. PRS was great initial training to show you what really is possible and repeatable. It is also a ton of fun and the people really helped cut my learning curve. I will get back to some matches hopefully.

This argument between holdovers and dialing comes up often with hunters crossing over into the "tacticool" gear, after tacticool guys say it is the best ever or some stupid magazine article or survey of match shooters. I fully admit that many people are "tacticool" and deserve to be mocked, just like I can question lots of long range "hunters", even the popular YouTube ones. I've seen some seriously cringeworthy long range shots of AZ hunts. If asked directly from a hunter just getting into it, I more regularly recommend that hunters don't go tacticool, because you can shoot long range without it. Staying with the familiar simplifies the learning curve and success. If someone really wants to get into after that, then I talk tacticool. 

Bottom line, shoot what you want how you want. I know and respect many long range hunters who do just fine with SFP reticles and dial everything. Broz from LongRangeOnly.com is one that immediately comes to mind. We have had the conversation and I can't argue with his common sense choices for his scope and purposes. I will freely admit that he makes good points, but for me, they aren't more persuasive for my choices and situation. 

If I come across as though FFP and trees are the only way or best way, that isn't my intent. I will make explicit that I am not arguing that everyone should use a tree and hold over. I am trying to push back against any idea that one is better than the other. And, especially pushing back on any idea that holding over with trees is not as accurate or can't be used effectively. There is plenty of room for debate of the choice. In the end, debate is good cause it informs. 

When it comes to the choice when hunting, the shooters who dive deep into long range field/tactical match shooting all gravitate to FFP with trees because it is a competitive advantage. It is the same reason FFP is the choice of snipers. I know this is a variation of "pulling the I know a sniper card", but it is common knowledge in the community, and, I am not quoting "the one sniper I know". All the active military snipers I know, and most retired run FFP and trees, and continue to use them in hunting. I have trained with a marine urban sniper instructor who doesn't like holding over deep into a reticle, because there is some issue with it optically once you get into the outer third of the scope, but still uses a tree. I spent a weekend training with a special forces sniper training detachment instructor, record holder from AMU, and he uses Tremor 3 on everything. If training is given on SFP or older reticles, it is because the military is slow to change. I've had or seen this discussion on this exact topic numerous times with a current coach at the AMU, former coach of AMU, former coaches of Marine shooting team, and multiple tier 1 long range shooting experts/trainers. I consider myself very fortunate to have connected into an informal network of such shooters, and gain from their knowledge and skill. It blows me away. The internet is an amazing thing.

On the other hand, I do know some snipers who still prefer to use a more traditional scope for hunting and dial rather than hold over. Certainly, every long range shooter I know could dial or holdover and use whatever reticle you gave them. In the end, for the vast majority of shots, long range gives you time and opportunity to choose whatever you want to do, including closing the gap to make it a short range shot, which can be more fun anyhow.

If anyone wants to join in the conversations on Facebook, see what I am talking about, that I am not making stuff up, join Long Range Shooters and Practical Precision Shooters, they are two of the best groups. Search the groups for this info, and even try asking the question. PM me privately and we can connect on Facebook and I'll give you direction on how I sucked the marrow out of those groups to learn and keep learning. Its amazing to see them respond generously to random internet dudes trying to help. Now, not all responding are experts, but if we connect, I can point out who they are.

Get knowledge, make an informed choice. Most importantly, go shoot.

[Steve123]

Great post Lobo!

[thegunsmith2506]

5 hours ago, Steve123 said:

DIALING - People don't always dial correctly do they???, I've misdialed, and have seen people make this mistake on many occasions. Stress, in match shooting or in a hunting situation makes making this mistake even more likely. 

I have seen this plenty of times. They dial for a shot at 600yds don't take the shot, and forget to re set zero and miss a 200yd shot.

[loboscout]

33 minutes ago, thegunsmith2506 said:

I have seen this plenty of times. They dial for a shot at 600yds don't take the shot, and forget to re set zero and miss a 200yd shot.

hahaha, I have done this enough on matches. I'm glad I did it there so that I don't do it on game. Its humbling when you can't see your shot, and someone else says, "check your turret, you are something like 5 mil high". Good natured mockery usually ensues.

Pre shot and post shot checklist, including dialing all turrets to zero at the end. Its got to be an automatic process for me cause my thinking brain runs out of bandwidth fast on the clock and looking at a critter. 

[Swivelhead]

Enjoying the dialogue and the education.

[Steve123]

Eh, I'm bored so I'll post my favorite long range rifle. Or as it may be called here, a Tacticool rifle. I like the term "precision rifle".

It's a American Rifle Company/ARC Mausingfield action with its included 20 moa picatinny mount, with a Trigger Tech trigger set at 10 oz, in a GRS Bolthorn chassis system which takes AICS type mags. A FFP S&B PM2 5-25x56/H59 in MRAD in ARC 34mm rings. Current cartridge is 6mm Benchrest which I used to hit the steel in the photo. I also used a TAB gear rear bag and a LRA bipod.

The other photo is a witnessed 10 shots on a 19" steel at 1000Y I did last year. It was windy and why it's wide, but look at that small vertical for 9 of the shots at 1.5"! This thing SHOOTS! Done out of the back of my truck due to the location I shot at which has a slight rise I had to shoot over. I shot all 10 rounds in a minute or so.