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Dr.308

Holdovers versus Come-Ups.

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With a zeroed rifle and a Ballistic App with current ambient conditions dial ups are dead on. Hold over marks essentially arbitrary because no one hold over reticle can exactly match your ammo and current density altitude. A good ballistic app like Strelok Pro lets you reference what hold over should like like with your scope and ammo. Still dial up is pretty easy and precise. For both types you can make a quick easy reference card out to 450 yards after that its better to check the ballistic app before the shot.

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3 hours ago, AZAV8ER said:

With a zeroed rifle and a Ballistic App with current ambient conditions dial ups are dead on. Hold over marks essentially arbitrary because no one hold over reticle can exactly match your ammo and current density altitude. A good ballistic app like Strelok Pro lets you reference what hold over should like like with your scope and ammo. Still dial up is pretty easy and precise. For both types you can make a quick easy reference card out to 450 yards after that its better to check the ballistic app before the shot.

^^^^^This

If your shooting out to 400-450 your hold over might work ok.  You will have to field verify it to make sure where your bullet it hitting.  Holding over farther than that (unless you practice a lot but if you do you will have zeroed scope with dials) you will end up shooting a grouping over 18-30”.  That’s not ethical.  Yeah it your only good with 400 Yds which is totally doable use the hold over.  But once you start reaching out it becomes addicting and you want to do more.   

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Hold over = Kentucky Windage.

Turrets = accuracy and precision.

 

Easy decision. 

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Here's what I do and it has worked well. I print a drop chart for my gun specifically for the conditions and elevation I expect on the hunt. I only make it out to 500 yards. Say I range an animal and 390 yards I will use the chart and dial up.  I use that for quick reference for the "closer" shots.

Anything I plan on shooting further than 500 yards I get out the phone app,kestrel ect. and put in exact data. If I dont have time  for that or the animal doesnt present the shot I will not shoot. I will not pull the trigger unless I am 99% sure i can make the shot. I hate looking for a wounded animal and tracking is not my something i am good at. Haha. 

I have never been able to feel confident enough using holdover reticles to make shots over 3- 400 yards consistently so I dont use them ever. 

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38 minutes ago, SHOOTER said:

Here's what I do and it has worked well. I print a drop chart for my gun specifically for the conditions and elevation I expect on the hunt. I only make it out to 500 yards. Say I range an animal and 390 yards I will use the chart and dial up.  I use that for quick reference for the "closer" shots.

Anything I plan on shooting further than 500 yards I get out the phone app,kestrel ect. and put in exact data. If I dont have time  for that or the animal doesnt present the shot I will not shoot. I will not pull the trigger unless I am 99% sure i can make the shot. I hate looking for a wounded animal and tracking is not my something i am good at. Haha. 

I have never been able to feel confident enough using holdover reticles to make shots over 3- 400 yards consistently so I dont use then ever. 

    ^^ THIS ^^

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So here is what I do. I print my exact reticle then write in the holdovers from my app. I also print out the comeups from my app. Then I spend the next several range sessions adjusting the charts to what my rifle & round actually do. Right now I am only going out to 1100 yards. I like using holdovers for faster shooting or transitioning between targets. With the Vortex Viper PST EBR 2 I can only hold over to about 700, past that I am too close to the bottom of the scope image. I can go to my 700 yard dope and shoot a second set of holdovers out to 1200 or more. Using comeups takes a lot longer but it is easier to place a precise shot with the center of the crosshairs than estimating 2/3 of the distance between two hash marks. When  I  shoot in the valley it’s low altitude and higher temps. I usually hunt 7000-9000 ft and it’s cold so with the thinner air increasing velocity and the lower temps decreasing velocity they somewhat cancel each other out. I have found over the years it’s not a big enough difference to worry about at shorter ranges.

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I really don’t think I understand the question. There are many reticles that have accurate hold overs. An example is Leupold’s TMOA. Whether I dial 10 MOA at 750 yards or use the 10th MOA hash it’s the same thing.  are these “hold over marks”?
 

 

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Dr.308.   I think I understand what you are saying.   He has a scope that has a reticle that has hash marks and he knows what those mark represent.    So should he use the hash marks to add 12 MOA to his dope or should he dial 12MOA?   I've done both and I've also verified that the hash marks in my scope are actually what they say they should be out to 1000 yards.  Personally I would dial.  

 

In regards to the colder temps and increased elevation "canceling" each other out I think is INSANE.   They don't cancel each other out.   I just ran my dope for my gun shooting in the valley at 70 degrees and then shooting in Flagstaff at 20 degrees.    At 1000 yards there is a 1.5 MOA difference.    That works out to 15" and a complete miss on any animal in the state.    Now the difference probably ins't a big enough deal from 100-400 yards but after that it will cause you to miss critters.    Goats and whitetails are really easy to miss.   

 

So this is what I do.   First you have to know your speed from shot to shot and it needs to be less than 15 FPS over a 10 shot string.   Less would be even better.   Then I zero my gun at 200 yards and set my zero at that distance.    Then I run my dope for the elevation where I will be hunting and take a guess and a normal temp.   Probably between 45-65 degrees (temp can change your point of impact too but normally you will know a tight range of temps before you leave.    I rarely hunt when it is zero or 95 degrees outside).   Then after I run my dope I make my chart going out to 1000 yards and tape it on my gun.   The two externals that affect the point of impact the greatest are the elevation and angle of the shot.    A steep up or down hill will change your dope dramatically.    I've never really had to deal with a huge change in elevation for a hunting shot at long range but it could happen.      

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I should not have said elevation and temperature cancel each other out as an ex cathedra statement. I should have said they "pretty much" cancel each other out. Also that comment was in reference to hunting inside 600 yards, not precision long range shooting to 1000+ yards. There is a difference when we change from shooting in the valley to hunting up north, but for me in the context of hunting elk or mule deer, inside 600 yards, it is not a big enough difference to where I have found I need to change my zero or dope chart. I found this out by shooting all year in the valley and going up north and checking dope out to 500. I retired and started hunting 9 years ago (5 Elk, 2 deer and a pig) so I took nothing for granted.  I had shot issued factory ammo for over 30 years, high end, but still factory ammo. I don't reload and I don't chronograph. I don't think I can, nor do I have the time to try to do a better job than the professionals when it comes to premium ammo. I know you can't always do that 500 yard pre-hunt check at the same elevation and weather everywhere you are going to hunt but in the area we usually hunt we have it pretty well figured out so I did it pre-hunt a couple times, now its just a range we can set up when we are up there. Regarding your 1.5 MOA deviation: Have you shot it? Apps are great but they can't tell you exactly what your particular rifle will do. It is all theory until it is in your dope book. This is the core of the issue. I get students now and then that run programs more than they shoot. I don't teach apps, I teach shooting and the less time they spend on their phones the more time they can work on improving their shooting skills. Apps are good but they are theory until you verify it by shooting it. Like so many things about shooting, the altitude and temperature thing has gotten ridiculous. Yes if you got up 5000 feet your bullet will strike higher in less dense air if the temperature is the same. If you zero at 100 degrees your bullet will strike lower at 32 degrees in colder denser air if you are at the same altitude. In the past few years I've read articles on altitude where things are heavier at higher altitude where the air provides less buoyancy, then again, the force of gravity is less at altitude than it is at sea level. I don't doubt these scientific facts but does it really affect how you shoot? It's sometimes just "beers-at-the-BBQ" talk. At some point I believe shooters should take the time to actually go out and shoot the distances and conditions, recording every shot in their dope book and see what their individual rifle, round, scope etc. will do. I see so many shooters go back to an app to see what went wrong with the shot when they haven't shot enough to even miss consistently. The same thing with chrony's, kestrals, integrated systems etc. It's like someone evil elf loaded them up with every toy they could sell them to make shooting an at home game and distract them from the actual work of shooting. Then when a shot goes wrong, they have a dozen toys to blame. People have shot over 1000 yards for over 100 years. That wasn't because of the apps or gear. It was spending time in the dirt, pressing the trigger and filling out dope books. The typical sniper book data book page (Round Count Page) that records the number of rounds fired through a rifle only lets you record only about 30 shooting sessions. That means you should kill a data book about every year if you shoot 2 x a month. At best I see a ratty notebook. I usually see a brand new dope book and a couple pages with random notes. It might be more productive to do the work. It's not a video game.    

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For as much as the consensus seems that dialing is the way to go, I can’t figure out why FFP scopes are such a big deal to people besides being tacticool.  I dial every shot over 250 yards.  Every one.  I use all SFP scopes as there are too many negative trade offs with FFP.  I actually have found it hard to find good SFP scopes and more importantly clean reticles.  I have special ordered my last two scopes with essentially duplex reticles in them as I know for a fact I won’t be using the subtensions and I’ve found that in the heat of the moment there’s just too much “going on” in most modern reticles. 

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I agree with yote buster. Most people dont utilize or know how to utilize their "fancy" reticle and there is way to much emphasis on FFP scopes. I dial every shot and much prefer a SFP scope. 

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9 hours ago, Dr.308 said:

I should not have said elevation and temperature cancel each other out as an ex cathedra statement. I should have said they "pretty much" cancel each other out. Also that comment was in reference to hunting inside 600 yards, not precision long range shooting to 1000+ yards. There is a difference when we change from shooting in the valley to hunting up north, but for me in the context of hunting elk or mule deer, inside 600 yards, it is not a big enough difference to where I have found I need to change my zero or dope chart. I found this out by shooting all year in the valley and going up north and checking dope out to 500. I retired and started hunting 9 years ago (5 Elk, 2 deer and a pig) so I took nothing for granted.  I had shot issued factory ammo for over 30 years, high end, but still factory ammo. I don't reload and I don't chronograph. I don't think I can, nor do I have the time to try to do a better job than the professionals when it comes to premium ammo. I know you can't always do that 500 yard pre-hunt check at the same elevation and weather everywhere you are going to hunt but in the area we usually hunt we have it pretty well figured out so I did it pre-hunt a couple times, now its just a range we can set up when we are up there. Regarding your 1.5 MOA deviation: Have you shot it? Apps are great but they can't tell you exactly what your particular rifle will do. It is all theory until it is in your dope book. This is the core of the issue. I get students now and then that run programs more than they shoot. I don't teach apps, I teach shooting and the less time they spend on their phones the more time they can work on improving their shooting skills. Apps are good but they are theory until you verify it by shooting it. Like so many things about shooting, the altitude and temperature thing has gotten ridiculous. Yes if you got up 5000 feet your bullet will strike higher in less dense air if the temperature is the same. If you zero at 100 degrees your bullet will strike lower at 32 degrees in colder denser air if you are at the same altitude. In the past few years I've read articles on altitude where things are heavier at higher altitude where the air provides less buoyancy, then again, the force of gravity is less at altitude than it is at sea level. I don't doubt these scientific facts but does it really affect how you shoot? It's sometimes just "beers-at-the-BBQ" talk. At some point I believe shooters should take the time to actually go out and shoot the distances and conditions, recording every shot in their dope book and see what their individual rifle, round, scope etc. will do. I see so many shooters go back to an app to see what went wrong with the shot when they haven't shot enough to even miss consistently. The same thing with chrony's, kestrals, integrated systems etc. It's like someone evil elf loaded them up with every toy they could sell them to make shooting an at home game and distract them from the actual work of shooting. Then when a shot goes wrong, they have a dozen toys to blame. People have shot over 1000 yards for over 100 years. That wasn't because of the apps or gear. It was spending time in the dirt, pressing the trigger and filling out dope books. The typical sniper book data book page (Round Count Page) that records the number of rounds fired through a rifle only lets you record only about 30 shooting sessions. That means you should kill a data book about every year if you shoot 2 x a month. At best I see a ratty notebook. I usually see a brand new dope book and a couple pages with random notes. It might be more productive to do the work. It's not a video game.    

Well I'm probably one of the rare guys that spends a bit to much time in the dirt.   Last year I put around 400-500 rounds down the tube of a hunting rifle.   Most of my shots are 100 yards for load development and then off to 500-1000 yards.   Probably shot over half the shots at 500-600 yards and have a system that will tell me exactly where each bullet hits as it hits.   I think that is a great distance to learn at with a hunting rifle.   I also like to take my rifle on trips around the state and shoot in different locations.    Last year I shot up in the Flagstaff area, White Mountains, down south and around the phoenix area.   Each location and setup will teach you something differnet about you and your gun.   Put the sun in your face as it just comes over the trees and see what happens.   Just like when hunting CWT deer. 

It's been my experience that if you have a good chronograph and know your speeds (and your extreme spread) and the published BC is correct then you will hit your target at any know distance with the trajectory apps on the market.   I have found some bullets that don't report accurate BC's and they normally get called out pretty quick.   Nosler is great at saying the bullets BC is way better than actual.   I do verify all BC's and loads out to 1000 yards before I take them in the field.   Last year I finished off a guys CWT in Mexico at 964 yards with back to back hits.   That doesn't get done by accident.    Shot my deer this year at 813 yards.   Also shot a deer in AZ at 75 yards.  Just depends on the day and conditions. 

Now for practical hunting distances (0-500 yards) I don't think velocity, BC and elevations play a huge part in killing an animal.   For the most part a scope with a BDC as part of the reticle will get the job done.   That would drive me crazy but it can be very practical for the average hunter.   Out past 500 yards everything changes and changes dramatically.   None of it is hard to learn but it does take time and people do need to dent primers in order to learn it.   I had a buddies kid shooting my gun out at 1000 yards last spring and I was calling the wind for him.   He was just crushing it and was really surprised at how far off I was telling him to aim off from shot to shot depending on the conditions.   I think he was learning quite a bit because I would tell him why he was aiming off and was teaching him how to notice the differences in conditions.   That is only learned from busting primers.         

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