soazarcher Report post Posted March 20, 2011 Please show me a picture of a mature, adult, 4.5 year old spike deer. I would love to see this deer. I've read extensively on the subject, and dispelled the wive's tale that spike are genetically inferior. I also live amongst dozens of deer year round, and have bucks in my backyard that prove otherwise. Maybe we can get Amanda or Mr. Heffelfinger to chime in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerRN Report post Posted March 20, 2011 Please show me a picture of a mature, adult, 4.5 year old spike deer. I would love to see this deer. I've read extensively on the subject, and dispelled the wive's tale that spike are genetically inferior. I also live amongst dozens of deer year round, and have bucks in my backyard that prove otherwise. Maybe we can get Amanda or Mr. Heffelfinger to chime in. Hi Soazarcher, Do you have any documentation or links to something one can read to study how you reached your conclusion? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but just saying you have disproven something, without supporting documentation really isn't helpful to one trying to reach a conclusion. Others have been kind enough to post links to web articles that support how they came to their conclusions. Would you care to do the same? I tend to live by a motto that is a holdover from previous employment, "Believe nobody and verify everything you are told." Biker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soazarcher Report post Posted March 20, 2011 Sorry, not trying to be argumentative either. You can start by reading Dr. Krolls study, some of which is posted above. Or taking a look at Jim Heffelfingers book, Deer of the Southwest, on page 82. Both are well respected in the field. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ultra300mag Report post Posted March 20, 2011 Being from Utah and having them implement a 3 point or better unit some years back I would say that it is only as good potentially as the sportsmen that hunt there. What I am saying is that some less than honorable hunters in utah found it hard to tell if the buck fit into the point category and shot first and check closer after only to find they had shot an illegal deer and walked away. This only led to more deer killed in the first place. Of course we all hope everyone follows the law and if so I think there could be some merit in point restrictions. I know that most if not all on this site follow the law and would comply but what of those others. It would probably pay any state that is looking into it to check with other states and see how their program worked out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soazarcher Report post Posted March 20, 2011 Ultramag, agreed. Antler point restrictions that leave bucks lying on the hill are bad for everyone. The only point I'm trying to make is that blanket statements about spikes are tough to make. Sure, a 2 year old buck, thats a whopping wide 3x3 has better genetics than a small fork horned 2 year old. That's obvious. And, I sure that SOME spikes, DO have poor genetics. But, to kill spikes, in an attempt to "better" the herd, IN MY OPINION, is a mistake. Genetics, nutrition, late pregnancies, all lead to more spike in the field. Judging a deers long term potential by his first set of antlers is tough to do. In an AZGFD study from 1993, 86% of spikes were yearling deer. Does this mean that 86% of our coues deer have bad genetics? I sure hope not. In my opinion, that spike that you let walk 5 years ago, could be the 110" that you're chasing this year. And I do have personal pictures and experiences to prove that (to myself). Happy hunting, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerRN Report post Posted March 20, 2011 soazarcher, You make a compelling argument that I will have to research further. Biker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DubTee Report post Posted March 20, 2011 soazarcher is spot on in my opinion. Biker, just google "spike deer genetics" and a whole host of articles will come up. I respect the opinion of the guy from Texas, that is the one place I consistently hear that they still want spikes shot. Not sure I agree with that, as Dr. Kroll's Texas study disproved that in a wild herd. What you must take into consideration about Texas is that there are many high fence places where you can somewhat control genetics, I can see a point of shooting spikes under high fence conditions considering all the variables one can control in that kind of operation. BTW, I too would love to see all these old spikes being shot, with proper documentation on how old the deer was, not sure I believe most of those tales. Using ultra's utah example, like I said before I'm sure deer would be mistakingly killed if restrictions are put in place, but how many legal bucks would survive because honest hunters couldn't figure out if they were legal or not until is was too late? Poachers poach, honest hunters will hunt according to the law, I'd like to believe there are many time more honest hunters than poachers out there. Like anything, a couple of illegal deer are killed and everyone thinks the world is on fire and that is happening everywhere.....not likely. PA has undoubtedly rebounded from terrible trophy hunting several years ago under an AR plan, so it is proven to work, just not everyone cares to shoot a trophy and I respect that. NM has been doing AR for bull elk for firearms hunting in just about all their top units for as long as I have been going over there (which hasn't been that long), and it seems to help as there are many trophy quality bulls there. Out of all the things wildlife managers can control, genetics is probably last on the list, so why waste time and resources. I hunt a buddies place in WI for archery deer during the rut every year. We have 1000 acres private, but the deer are free ranging. We implemented a QDM program there about 8 years ago, the only thing we changed was to not shoot young bucks, 3.5+ year old bucks only, with most of us only caring to shoot a 4.5 year old or older deer. The trophy quality on that farm has grown by leaps and bounds over the past several years. We see many more bucks, much more intense rutting action, and encounter many more "shooters" than ever before. Over the past 3 years we have harvested more 150+ inch deer than the last 20 years combined on that property. Now managing public land in AZ is a heck of a lot different, but things like AR could be a way to do it if you want the age structure of bucks to increase in certain areas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NTBoy Report post Posted March 20, 2011 Please show me a picture of a mature, adult, 4.5 year old spike deer. I would love to see this deer. I've read extensively on the subject, and dispelled the wive's tale that spike are genetically inferior. I also live amongst dozens of deer year round, and have bucks in my backyard that prove otherwise. Maybe we can get Amanda or Mr. Heffelfinger to chime in. Wished I could, and am not going to get into an arguement. Rarely if ever do we take any pictures of the spikes and does we shoot, but we do pull the jaws and age them. But from experience here in Texas, the statement about the genetics in your area being possibly messed up, could be quite true. We each have our experiences, and from mine I go along with spikes being inferior animals. If at 1.5 a buck has branched antlers under normal range conditions that animals has better genetic potential than a similarly aged buck on the same range that is a spike. Waiting for any particular animal to reach maturity i.e. breeding age, to see whetehr it is going to produce a good rack, is only practical on high fenced properties, where that animal can be monitored. That is practically impossible to do with free ranging deer, unless a particular animal has some type of distinguishing markings to ensure that it can be recognised any time it is seen. The biggest problem as I see it, in playing the waiting game with spikes, is at what age does a person decide a particular spike is a no go, will never produce a good rack, and decided it needs to be taken out, 3.5/4.5? Keeping in mind that this same spike is breeding any doe he can, passing along those spike genetics. Whether it is Arizona/Pennsylvania/Texas where ever white tails are hunted, the arguement about Trophy Hunting/QDM versus just folks wanting to shoot a deer keeps rearing its ugly little head and no ones mind is ever changed. The Trophy/QDM supporters tend to or do want regulations enacted, that force everyone to hunt the way they want it done. The folks that are just interested in shooting deer are left out in the cold, unless a person is in an area with liberal doe limits. The problem lies in the fact that not all of us hunt under the exact same ethical standards, so like here in Texas, once a buck in the AR counties reaches Lucky Number 13, he is shot, unless the land owner has ranch regulations in effect that restrict the harvest to 4.5 year olds or older. I can't see that being practical at all on vast tracts of Public Land, where there is no way to inventory each and every deer. Unless or until management practices regardless of the state can guarantee that 100% of a free ranging herd will produce trophy antlers, or 100% of all spikes will grow a good rack, or 100% of all spikes do not do any breeding, the various management schemes are doomed to failure. To me, this would be especially true on Public Land, where the herd can not be intensively controlled/managed and the people hunting such areas can not be controlled so that such things as was mentioned by another poster, won't happen. Again, all of this is just my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cw4192 Report post Posted March 20, 2011 How about closing units around the state on a three year rotation I.E like closing 6A,21,22, for three years and then close 5b north and south,22 the following three years and just move around the state closing units that are connected and let the deer and elk etc.. get a better populatin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dusty Report post Posted March 20, 2011 How about closing units around the state on a three year rotation I.E like closing 6A,21,22, for three years and then close 5b north and south,22 the following three years and just move around the state closing units that are connected and let the deer and elk etc.. get a better populatin $$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billrquimby Report post Posted March 20, 2011 How about closing units around the state on a three year rotation I.E like closing 6A,21,22, for three years and then close 5b north and south,22 the following three years and just move around the state closing units that are connected and let the deer and elk etc.. get a better populatin Good God! This is where I came in. A three-year-moratorium on deer hunting to improve antler quality and increase the deer population was what two influential rancher/trophy hunters tried to get from the Legislature in 1969 ... and we got a permit-only hunting system that cut our numbers by 60 % forever instead. This thread proves once again that hardcore hunters and fishermen are their own worst enemies. A state wildlife agency absolutely should not attempt to manage wildlife for 5% to 10% of its constituents, but that's what antler restrictions to "improve trophy quality" do. What's needed is more effort spent on restoring hunter access and reducing restrictions and other impediments to building that constituent base, not reducing it. There will come a day that a ballot issue will determine whether or not we can hunt. Managing for trophy hunting will speed that day and will guarantee that we will lose. Every hunting unit in Arizona has trophy deer and elk that grow old by surviving hordes of hunters every season. If you are a good-enough hunter, you will find them. Bill Quimby Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loco4coues Report post Posted March 20, 2011 "Every hunting unit in Arizona has trophy deer and elk that grow old by surviving hordes of hunters every season. If you are a good-enough hunter, you will find them." Bill Quimby +1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NTBoy Report post Posted March 21, 2011 Plus 2. That same thing can be said for every state that has a huntable population of white tail, either species, or mulies or black tails. good hunters will kill good animals. Not so good hunters want to have the various Game and Fish departments to do the work for them and try to produce nothing but trophy animals, so they do not have to actually hunt, all they will have to do is pick and choose. JMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MattMan Report post Posted March 22, 2011 A great way to improve quality and quantity of game out there is to get off the couch and go whack some predators in the "off-season".... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerRN Report post Posted March 22, 2011 A great way to improve quality and quantity of game out there is to get off the couch and go whack some predators in the "off-season".... I agree. Anybody got a newborn rugrat I can borrow? The cry of a newborn baby makes the best 'yote call, as I found out years ago. Biker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
