3rd bear attack

[Pine Donkey]

Just saw on the news game and fish shot a boar and sow and sending DNA samples to Wyoming to see if either bear was involved with any of the attacks.

 

Guilty by association?

[bowhuntaz1]

Any sows the Game and Fish kill count toward the unit's annual quota.

Note 2 from the Regs

 

 

2. When the number of female bears equaling

the female harvest limit for a particular hunt

has been reported killed, by either hunters

or the Department, the unit(s) will be closed

atsundownthe Wednesday immediately following. Hunters are responsible for calling

1-800-970-BEAR (2327) before hunting to

determine if their desired hunt unit is still

open. The female harvest limit is combined

for Unit 35A/35B and Fort Huachuca hunts,

and both hunts will close when the female

harvest limit is reached for Unit 35A/35B.

[1uglydude]

Any sows the Game and Fish kill count toward the unit's annual quota.

Note 2 from the Regs

 

 

2. When the number of female bears equaling

the female harvest limit for a particular hunt

has been reported killed, by either hunters

or the Department, the unit(s) will be closed

atsundownthe Wednesday immediately following. Hunters are responsible for calling

1-800-970-BEAR (2327) before hunting to

determine if their desired hunt unit is still

open. The female harvest limit is combined

for Unit 35A/35B and Fort Huachuca hunts,

and both hunts will close when the female

harvest limit is reached for Unit 35A/35B.

 

But they also build some breathing room into the quota for these situations. If you add up all of the individual hunt quotas for 22, for instance, it doesn't quite add up to the annual quote. This allows the Department to take some sows without affecting hunting seasons.

[lonne]

If I am understanding correctly, Spring Archery 22 would be closed because of the sow killed by the Department?

[1uglydude]

If I am understanding correctly, Spring Archery 22 would be closed because of the sow killed by the Department?

 

No, it won't. The sow comes off of the annual quota, rather than an individual hunt quota. In theory, Department harvests could affect hunts, but if so it would be the last hunt of the year. I've had a long talk with a Department employee about this.

[lonne]

Thanks 1uglydude. That sounds great but not how I am reading it so sure hope like you said that I'm reading it incorrectly.

 

I assume these bears were killed in Unit 22.

 

I'm looking at Archery Spring Bear http://www.azgfd.gov/regs/springregs.pdf page 23 (25 of 32) and it says the Archery tag for Unit 22 has Female Harvest Limit of 1. It lists Notes 1, 2, 3, 7.

 

Note 3 says:

 

When the number of female bears equaling

the female harvest limit for a particular hunt

has been reported killed, by either hunters

or the Department, the unit(s) will be closed

at sundown the Wednesday immediately following.

Hunters are responsible for calling

1-800-970-BEAR (2327) before hunting to

determine if their desired hunt unit is still

open. The female harvest limit is combined

for Unit 35A/35B and Fort Huachuca hunts,

and both hunts will close when the female

harvest limit is reached for Unit 35A/35B.

[1uglydude]

Thanks 1uglydude. That sounds great but not how I am reading it so sure hope like you said that I'm reading it incorrectly.

 

I assume these bears were killed in Unit 22.

 

I'm looking at Archery Spring Bear http://www.azgfd.gov.../springregs.pdf page 23 (25 of 32) and it says the Archery tag for Unit 22 has Female Harvest Limit of 1. It lists Notes 1, 2, 3, 7.

 

Note 3 says:

 

When the number of female bears equaling

the female harvest limit for a particular hunt

has been reported killed, by either hunters

or the Department, the unit(s) will be closed

at sundown the Wednesday immediately following.

Hunters are responsible for calling

1-800-970-BEAR (2327) before hunting to

determine if their desired hunt unit is still

open. The female harvest limit is combined

for Unit 35A/35B and Fort Huachuca hunts,

and both hunts will close when the female

harvest limit is reached for Unit 35A/35B.

 

 

Yes, the sow was killed in 22...22S to be exact. I'm not basing it on my interpretation, but on what I was told by one of the supervisors in Region VI.

 

Again, the annual quotas allow for Department to take some sows before it affects hunters. They have to take several sows before it affects us. Not only that, no one killed a sow in 22 during the spring rifle season, so the annual quota already has one sow to give to the Department total.

 

But, if this were going to close it down, then it would close tomorrow at dark. They haven't updated the recording yet, so I guess tomorrow morning you'll know for sure.

[Willyhunts2]

I started thinking the same thing today. Will this affect the other bear hunts in 22 or will they not even have a archery spring hunt next year? I understand points on both side, just don't understand what game and fish will do in a situation like this when they end up killing three bears while a hunt is going on where a single sow killed will close the hunt. Wonder if they have ever came across a situation like this. This is the first time I've ever heard of three bears being shot and all these attacks like this. According to game and fish, before this there was 3 recorded bear attacks in last 10 years. Could be wrong about that though.

[lonne]

Not disagreeing at all 1 uglydude, just trying to understand where it is written. In fact would be quite happy if it is as you and bowhuntaz1 states. Maybe the answer to the following question would sum it up. Is it written somewhere in the regs 1) when a sow is counted against the unit annual harvest limit and 2) when a sow is counted against unit season female harvest limit and 3) when a sow is counted against both?

[lonne]

OK, found this, which goes along with what has been said:

http://www.azgfd.gov...ublic draft.pdf

 

Which contains the following quote:

 

 

The annual female harvest limit comprises female bears lethally removed through Department action

(e.g., nuisance) and female bears harvested by hunters.

 

It does not provide answers to questions exactly as I asked, but it does state that female bears (nuissance or not) removed by the department are counted against the annual female harvest limit and not necessarily the unit season harvest limit (?). It would be useful to know where in permanent regulations or law this was written... Couldn't find it described in detail in the Spring Regs

[1uglydude]

Not disagreeing at all 1 uglydude, just trying to understand where it is written. In fact would be quite happy if it is as you and bowhuntaz1 states.

 

I appreciate the deference...I guess...but I'm not offerring anything that would require agreement or disagreement, only an observation on how the Department actually handles it from the mouth of the decisionmaker himself. Hopefully when you see that the season doesn't close down tomorrow your mind will be put at ease because you'll have some hard evidence founded in precedent.

[lonne]

So what about the anesthesia? Obviously this has been discussed before so what are the pros/cons of doing it that way? Is there more info on this lab in Wyoming? There are some grad students in this country doing some amazing things through programs funded by universities and lives depend on it. Not sure a 14 year old and a brake job is the best analogy but certainly there exists argument between a grad student paid $20-30 an hour versus a professional $150-300 (someone with a resume and 10+ years of experience and an extensive background and proven track record). Think there are many more factors to be considered here and certainly some history behind why Wyoming is being used or has been chosen for this...But, how quick is the turnaround? What is the guarantee of certainty? Etc...

[lonne]

If you had a long talk with a Department employee it certainly must have put you at ease. Glad you have a friend in a high place and have enlightened me and probably others...I would just like to know what the law says, like a lawyer would, that's all. Rather than depend on a phone call. I don't know you, and I don't know your friend in a high place. You are someone with knowledge of the law and a friend in a high place, so I give credence to that. I also give credence to what the letter of the law says, as it is most likely to dissolve any remaining questions.

[1uglydude]

I also give credence to what the letter of the law says, as it is most likely to dissolve any remaining questions.

 

 

 

I never said anything about friends, just that I had asked these same questions (which means I once had the exact same concerns as you) of those in the know. Welcome to the world of laws, rules, and regulations...they're often poorly drafted and you end up having to rely on how those with authority choose to enforce them. There's a reason they say lawmaking is akin to making sausage.

[1uglydude]

So what about the anesthesia? Obviously this has been discussed before so what are the pros/cons of doing it that way? Is there more info on this lab in Wyoming? There are some grad students in this country doing some amazing things through programs funded by universities and lives depend on it. Not sure a 14 year old and a brake job is the best analogy but certainly there exists argument between a grad student paid $20-30 an hour versus a professional $150-300 (someone with a resume and 10+ years of experience and an extensive background and proven track record). Think there are many more factors to be considered here and certainly some history behind why Wyoming is being used or has been chosen for this...But, how quick is the turnaround? What is the guarantee of certainty? Etc...

 

Here, you go...and I'm guessing you'd be hard pressed to find a government employee anywhere that can charge $300. If you know of such a position, please let me know.

 

http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/wgfd-1000363.aspx

 

The folks at the facility know what they're doing, and unlike a revolving team of grad students, they probably don't have to be taught from scratch every few years. Also, given the potential legal liability (the USFS has been successfully sued for preventable bear attacks in the fast), I'm sure the powers that be want the work done quickly, efficiently, and reliably.