Randy Ulmer Hunting Accident?

[COUESAZ]

Way to go Jim you have ruined it for us all now. Could you please go back to using the name George again.

[bowhunter4life]

were does it stop? $2000 optics, $3000 trucks, $1200 rinos, hov's, gps, web maps, top notch hunting guns,bows, trail cams, gagets and more gagets. we all spend big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to feed our hunting addiction. we are all guilty at some level. mike

[COOSEFAN]

Way to go Jim you have ruined it for us all now. Could you please go back to using the name George again.

sorry.........i'll stop now and keep quiet in the new "hole" I dug for myself......Jorge Gonzales

[azhuntnut]

I wish I had one, so I could fly over the Verde Hot Springs. I have seen some TROPHYS in there. If you guys ever met Jimmy face to face you would found out real quick that he is pretty nice fella. He will always send you in the right direction for some good hunting areas and never ask for anything back. It took some guts to say that he owned one of these planes and I applaud him for it. I even wanted to go up also, until he told me about the accident. Alot of us are using technology available now that our fathers didn't have back in the day. Even our clothing allows us to stay out longer, and keeps us dry for those wet days in the field. David

[Rembrant]

A wise man named Lark once said that if it's legal, then ethics are only opinions. It is my opinion that ultra light/chute plains are bad for the sport. Bobbyo said it very well; the rare giant bucks are getting unnaturally leaned on. And whether it be because of money, pressure, or reputation, it is pure selfishness.

Mike

[Noel Arnold]

My final word on this subject is that it may be legal now.But if we can still expect to hunt in the future then the powers to be need to make it illegal to fly.

Noel

[redline410]

Atta' boy Jim- I agree 100%. Would I ever climb into a motorized parachute- heck no!! I'm a big ol' <Meow> but I can't bash on a guy for doing something within the limits of the law. Ulmer is a great archer that is what his life was built around. The pressures guides feel right now to keep up are mutiplied ten fold for cats like that. Whether you think it's right or wrong is up to you but as long as it's within the boundaries of the laws hey, whatever. there seems to be confusion between ethics and choice- I choose to use archery equipment because with my mad skills rifles give me an unfair advantage . That wasn't always the case but it is now. Do I think rifle hunters are unethical? not hardly- I relish the fact that they need them to have a chance at success. I'd take my mangy ol' 80" archery coues of a 100" rifle coues anyday. Someone brought up the $2,000 optics, $50,000 trucks, $8,000 quads, $12,000 Rhinos. They forgot about the $1,500 rifles and $1,200 bows, gps, 2-way radios, range finders, ridiculous camo patterns, scents, electric socks and a miriad of other gizmos and gadgetry all just to have a chance at an animal with a brain the size of a golf ball....Who really has the advantage?

 

Oh real quick, the comparison between Bonds using "every means possible" to achieve his success- Good one. Only thing is, Roids are an illegal drug which, last I checked, just because MLB DOESN'T test for them doesn't all of the sudden make them legal.

 

peace,

 

Dave

[TREESTANDMAN]

It bothers me that people are using words like greedy, selfish, come over to the good side, evil. Have any of us talked w/ Randy Ulmer and found out why he does it? Or all we just mind readers? I believes that a persons intention many times is what makes an act ethical or unethical. I don't know much about chute planes but the idea of flying somewhat close to the ground over beautiful country at a slower speed watching deer and elk really appeals to me. Have any of you guys ever been to Califoria Adventure and tried the hangliding ride? It is awesome!!! People keep assuming the Randy Ulmer does it because of the pressure, or the fame, or he is greedy, or wicked. What if he really enjoys doing it because it is a blast, a rush of adrenaline? He enjoys seeing wildlife in that manner?

 

Because of the risk, price, training requirements, and complicity of these chute planes I can't really see this becoming a very popular scouting option. I don't plan on purchasing one, but it does seem to me like a very exciting and thrilling experience. If I did do my research and felt it was safe and drew a coveted kiabab tag. I probably would scout using this method and feel no remorse if I harvested a nice buck as a result.

 

I can see where hunters are coming from in their point of view that it is unethical. I disagree.

 

What I really don't like is people making assumptions on other people's motives.

[mattys281]

I've yet to see anything in print (outside of this forum) that says what Mr. Ulmer was doing in the plane at all. He may have been trying something new on vacation to take his mind away from hunting & writing, as while those are our hobbies, they are his job. None the less, these developed into an ethics debate, so everyone feels free to chime in with their opinions, which is as it should be. I personally enjoy reading everyones point of view. A lot of excellent points.

 

My view is unchanged though. The way I look at it, there are three parts to hunting: 1. find'em, 2. stalk or ambush 'em, 3. bag & tag. I think the chute plane idea vastly over simplifies #1, as finding them is most of the work involved in hunting! Most people scout for weeks ahead of their hunt. I'd rather enjoy my tag soup at the end then stare at a buck I bagged that way.

[Rembrant]

Mr. Treestand, man!

My opinion was on chute planes in an Ulmer string. You put the two together.

I do not agree with you either, but I respect your opinion none the less.

Bobbyo called it. There aren't that many giant bucks out there, and the chuters are pounding them. I like the fact that there may be giant bucks out there to be killed by anyone. For a handful of guys to be getting giants year after year after year shows me that they don't care if there are giant bucks out there for ANYONE to kill; they want them all!

What are their motives? You figure it out, or if you feel that is politically incorrect, ask the people you are defending to write in and explain it for themselves.

Mike

[TREESTANDMAN]

He was probably scouting for his Kiabab hunt. The most important part of hunting is enjoying the ride, eg. Pre-scouting, hiking, finding new areas, etc. Taking an animal is just the icing on the cake.

 

Rembrant,

 

Where do you get your info that chute planes are pounding them? That is news to me?

[daverp]

I think what some who are throwing out the technology debate (i.e. gps, rangefinders, binos, etc.) fail to see is these things are available to most people. A gps can be picked up for under $100 now. Rangefinders aren't that expensive, and really don't offer that much of an edge anyway. Thousand dollar binos? My $200 Nikon Monarch ATB's serve me just fine, thanks, and trust me when I tell you that some guy's Swarovskis really aren't giving them that big of an edge over my cheapie Nikons. ATV's? I can't for the life of me see how anyone could consider an ATV an asset or advantage to any hunt, except after the animal is down and for recovery purposes. Some slob road hunting from road, trail, or cross country on an ATV will never see the number or quality of animals that someone who ventures a mere 1/2 mile off the road on foot will.

 

Sure, these things are great technological advances and extreme advantages over what was being used 100 years ago. However, 100 years ago they didn't have to deal with the hunting pressures and limited available lands we do now. The animals are simply harder to hunt now than they were then. But all these things are no great advantage over not using them, and still require one to put in the hard work if they want to be consistently successful.

 

This chute plane thing though stinks to high heaven. What's next? Super rich dudes paying to have sattelites re-tasked to find and track animals? Is that sporting? What's the difference between that and this? My personal belief is that any "eye in the sky" technique short of your own leg power to drag your butt up to the top of a hill or mountain to glass is unethical. To be able to cover that much PRIME ground, that quickly, with no expenditure of real effort is flat out not sporting.

 

I think I heard it best on another forum. This guy consistently takes HUGE animals, record book animals, that many great hunters spend a lifetime trying to take, and wants everyone to believe it's because he's some kind of "super hunter". Great, fine, I'll buy it. But, when he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar, using highly questionable and controversial means, even if it was "just this once" at the VERY LEAST that puts him under a great amount of suspicion, that he brought on himself. If he was looking for a shortcut on just this one hunt and got nabbed, he darn well ought to be intelligent enough to at least know how it looks.

 

He made his bed. He's a big boy, and now he can lay in it. He might be a great guy, but he's gotta know how this looks.

[COUESAZ]

I know ATV's are not what this thread is about but i know for a fact that my ATV gets me to a couple spots in my area that trucks stoped going about 15 years ago. I know mine stoped there because i rolled it on the climb in the last time i tryed it 15 years ago. I am not a road hunter my my quad IS a tool for me to get to the spot that takes me 5 miles by foot tlo my hunting grounds. And yes i do see some guys back there that are Pack hunting as well. but my quad saved me another 6 miles by foot.

[TAM]

These are a few of the questions that pop up in my mind as I read through this discussion. They're not meant to bash anyone. I just have to ask because some of the statements in quotes seem outrageous, unfounded, and in some cases just plain wrong. For the record, I don't own a chute plane, nor have I ever flown in one. I'd say that when it comes to scouting I'm not against their use, but I am very much against their mis-use!

 

Daverp - "My personal belief is that any "eye in the sky" technique short of your own leg power to drag your butt up to the top of a hill or mountain to glass is unethical." That's a pretty broad statement What about trucks, horses, a bicycle, a pack goat, a float plane, or even a pogo stick? Dare I even mention an ATV? What are your thoughts on trail cameras?

 

Rembrant - "...the chuters are pounding them" I always enjoy and respect your thoughts, but I've just got to ask, do you have facts that support this statement? Is it your opinion or a prediction perhaps?

 

Noel - "My final word on this subject is that it may be legal now.But if we can still expect to hunt in the future then the powers to be need to make it illegal to fly." - It is already illegal to fly during the hunt.

 

Bobbyo - "These bucks are likely to have never seen a human, never experienced a hunting season. They would be as wise as a 1 year old spike, how could they not be." - Your reason against chute planes is because they could find animals in remote areas that are not as wise? These remote animals would be more easily shot because they are not as wise?

 

Daverp - "Personally, this whole thing really takes the shine off of Mr. Ulmer's image as far as I'm concerned" - So because you have a different opinion on an ethics issue it's ok to look down your nose at him?

 

Daverp - "but he's still using the tactic not available to most hunters to greatly increase his odds of success over traditional, hard earned methods." - Sounds like since you don't have a chute plane no one should have a chute plane? I'd also like to see some factual information that supports your theory that chute planes "greatly increase" hunting success?

 

Daverp - "More importantly he's using a method that most hunters would find unethical." - This may be your opinion, but that doesn't mean it's everyon else's opinion as well.

 

Coues7 - "if we look the small picture it would be cool to use chute planes, helicopter and such to locate game.....this gives us the MAJOR UPPER HAND" - If used within the current AZ laws in the very best senario a chute plane still only tells us where animals were two days ago. How is this a "major advantage"? Advantage - yes, Major advantage - ??? I have trail cameras that can tell me where animals were two days ago, but I've yet to shoot one of them. How is this any different?

 

Bobbyo - "glad you are back on the side of good instead of evil" - So just because you are anti chute plane's that makes a chute plane scouter evil? Isn't that kind of self righteous or are you trying to be sarcastic?

 

Bobbyo - "yet a guy in a chute plane can spot a trophy mule from the air, know its exact location and then list his trophy in the book." - How do you know his "exact" location? If you were using your chute plane in accordance with the law, at very best you would know exactly where he was 48 hours ago? Is it different if I used a trail camera to find his "exact" location?

[daverp]

Lemme address your questions one by one:

 

Daverp - "My personal belief is that any "eye in the sky" technique short of your own leg power to drag your butt up to the top of a hill or mountain to glass is unethical." That's a pretty broad statement What about trucks, horses, a bicycle, a pack goat, a float plane, or even a pogo stick? Dare I even mention an ATV? What are your thoughts on trail cameras?

 

Those are essentially methods available to most of us, and in common use. Note the emphasis on "eye in the sky" here. It's not so much about how you get to the top of the mountain, and that was not what I was getting at. Using elevation attained by way of leg power, horse power, or whatever, to glass from a vantage point from land is an accepted method of scouting / hunting, whereas flying around above places not visible from adjacent vantage points, or because one does not want to put the leg work into scouting these areas on foot, is NOT ethical, again, in my opinion. It it's ethical to you, that's fine, but I'd say we have completely different views about what hunting is really about.

 

Daverp - "Personally, this whole thing really takes the shine off of Mr. Ulmer's image as far as I'm concerned" - So because you have a different opinion on an ethics issue it's ok to look down your nose at him?

 

I never said I looked down my nose at him. I admire the heck outta the guy (certainly not so much now though). He's fit like no other hunter I know of. He takes risks and chances I would not take myself in pursuit of his animals (being afield with NO supplies or resources). He hunts all day long without water or food, and runs across the west's rugged rocky landscape in friggin tennis shoes! The guy's a hunting stud, and has got more balls than I do to hunt the way he does, no doubt. BUT, I don't agree one little bit with this method he's aparently employed for scouting, and in my eyes it GREATLY diminishes the stature of the trophies he has taken over the years if this method was employed by him, or anyone else who scouted for him, and aided in taking any of his trophies. Nobody may ever know the truth, but as the old saying goes, "where there's smoke, there's fire" kind of applies here, dontcha think? He gets injured on one of these contraptions, aparently a pal of his from what I understand, Ryan Hatch of Muley Crazy Magazine, was charged for illegal hunting from the air, owns one of these things, and uses it to "scout", etc. Come on, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put it all together. I certainly feel strongly enough about it that I'll be cancelling my muley crazy subscription as well. I don't do business with frauds and poachers, especially those who exploit a tradition I love for their own financial gain.

 

Daverp - "More importantly he's using a method that most hunters would find unethical." - This may be your opinion, but that doesn't mean it's everyon else's opinion as well.

 

Your point? I know of guys who think it's perfectly ethical to road hunt, hunt animals in penned or fenced enclosures, and blast away at multiple animals until one drops. Doesn't make it right. I would say that from what I've seen so far concerning this subject, the vast majority of our (hunting) peers finds this practice unethical, distasteful, or at a minimum highly controversial. If you read through this thread, you'll see some who have even done it, and thought it unethical. It's an unfair advantage not only for one hunter over another hunter, but more importantly an unfair advantage for one hunter over the game he's pursuing.

 

I tire of this "if it's legal, who are you to say it's unethical" garbage. I'm your peer, that's who I am! And if me and enough of your peers think it's unethical, well then, we dang well ought to do what can be done to stop the practice, because IT REFLECTS ON US ALL if we allow it to continue.

 

Sounds like since you don't have a chute plane no one should have a chute plane? I'd also like to see some factual information that supports your theory that chute planes "greatly increase" hunting success?

 

I hope you're not one of those elitist self important types that likes to insinuate that because I don't have one, I must not be able to afford one, and if I can't afford one, nobody should have one? That's a common ATV argument that seems to be carrying over into this discussion. I don't care who has them and enjoys them. Sounds like a kick in the pants to me, albeit a dangerous one. I just don't think they should be used in hunting or scouting. I don't have horses either, and have never hunted from them, but I believe their use in hunting is perfectly ethical, as do most of our peers.

 

As for "factual information", let's not be silly. How CAN IT NOT greatly increase hunting success? You only need to look at all the guides and outfitters who are using them to get your answer. One guide in this thread has already attested to their effectiveness for scouting. There's a reason scouting by air 48 hours before a hunt is illegal....because it's highly effective!

 

There's also a reason this is kept so hush right now. Because they know it's unethical, or shall we say would at least it would be perceived as such by a large number of their peers and the general public, and do not want their methods advertised for fear of having this highly effective method of "scouting" banned.

 

Personally, I'll do what little it is that I can do to get this garbage out in the open and get it banned. As much as I distaste scouting by airplane or helicopter and believe that to also be unethical, neither one of those approaches could possibly be anywhere near as effective as "scouting" from one of these low flying, stealthy, contraptions.

 

The commercialization of hunting and this attitude that "if it's legal, it's okay", along with the willingness to pay any sum, or cross any boundry to collect the next record is sickening to me, and will destroy this sport and tradition.