Whitetails moving downhill

[IHunt2live]

I'de like to propose a question for you all. Me personaly, haven't been around for long enough to compare, but I know a lot of you have been hunting coues for a while and I like to know what you all think about whitetails moving to lower and lower elavations. I've visited with a lot of people, and some biologist, who have said that the coues can be seen in much lower elavations then were they have been historicly. Have most of you seen this? Why do you think it is and do you think that has an impact of the desert mule deer at least in some areas? Just curious what you all think.

[rimhunter]

In my younger days we hunted mule deer in a area where my Grandfather had some mining clames . there were no coues deer in that area and it was a good 20 miles to where the coues were at .

There are no mule deer there now and the coues deer have moved in with a pretty good number of them .

I dont think the coues ran the mule deer out I think the lions did and the coues have just expanded there area

[ultramag]

I have odserved coues in the low country as well, about 2500 is as low as I have seen, it was close to regular coues country. the bucks I have seen are very nice ones, less hunting pressure. That was my plan this year to hunt the muledeer counrty for coues It did not pay off but it will someday.

[SilentButDeadly]

When I worked for Saguaro National Park (2002-2005) the ranger always commented on how the springs on the mountain were all dry, where as they all used to flow. Possible explanation might be that without permanent sources of water up in the sky islands the deer went down hill...

[azryan]

in my area they def have moved to lower elevations....

[azcouesandelk]

I see decent to good numbers of them at high elevations and low elevations. They are definately widening there range and moving into more mule deer looking country. The population just keeps going up in my opinion.

[TAM]

I've definatly seen this in units 22 and 24b. Areas that used to hold mostly mule deer now hold coues. Even though coues are smaller than muleys they are more aggressive and are the more dominate species. They also seem to sustain themselves better during times of drought and cold.

[Guest Reynaldo de la Torre]

I'de like to propose a question for you all. Me personaly, haven't been around for long enough to compare, but I know a lot of you have been hunting coues for a while and I like to know what you all think about whitetails moving to lower and lower elavations. I've visited with a lot of people, and some biologist, who have said that the coues can be seen in much lower elavations then were they have been historicly. Have most of you seen this? Why do you think it is and do you think that has an impact of the desert mule deer at least in some areas? Just curious what you all think.

 

 

I noticed that several years ago and even talked about it with a Wildlife Manager. He did not offer any explanations though.

I think it has a lot to do with the many dry years that we have had.

[Noel Arnold]

Mule deer populations are down all over the United States.Whitetail are up (eastern and coues).Whitetail are more adaptable then mule deer.

Noel

[redline410]

I've also noticed the 22/24B transition and have even seen Coues bucks running Muley does on occasion in those units. They are the more aggressive of the species for sure and with the decline in the mule deer population there is less competition for food so it was only a matter of time........

 

TAM- If you're running those two areas on the Roosevelt lake side I'd like to compare a few notes with ya one day. I've hunted that split for more than a decade now and have noticed some ridiculous trends.......Cats, Fires, Ranchers and AZGFD stepping on their own Di- er, pen- er, units has done some crazy stuff to what was once one of the best deer hunting areas in teh state for both species.......

[muley]

I agree with the whitetails being more adaptive to some areas, I saw more coues than mule deer on my hunt in the high country this year, although that may not say much do to we don't have many mule deer left anyways. But on a couple occassions people said they saw coues bucks running with muley does?

[TAM]

Redline, I'm always game for comparing notes, but I've spent very little time on that side of the unit(s). In fact 24b used to be one of my top units, but over the past several years I've really seen the numbers of coues, muley, and javelina go down hill fast! I spend very little time there anymore. I'n my opinion way to many tags are being offered.

[azhuntnut]

I went on a whitetail hunt in unit 32 back in 1992. We would park the truck and start the long walk to our hunting area. I would always see muleys on the way in and then as we got higher it would turn to whitetail. I hunted there again in 94 and saw that the whitetail had moved down almost a half mile of terrain. Then in 2000 I helped a buddy in the same area. The whitetail were actually mixed in with the muleys now and were starting to work out onto the flats. In 2002 I headed back for some more fun and found out that most of the muleys had completely moved out of the area and the whitetail had taken over the territory. We were now seeing them way out on the flats in the greasewoods. I spoke with a friend of mine that is a fourth generation hunter in that area, and he told me that they never saw whitetail in this hunting spot until the 70's. They have seen cross breeding of the deer where the whitetail breed the muleys. I think they are a much more aggresive deer and might be a little more whiley to keep from getting killed by the lions as much as the muleys. They keep moving higher into the state. I have them near my property up in East Clear Creek area. In a couple more years I think they will be up in Walnut Canyon area. David

[Rembrant]

They are already in Walnut Canyon and Anderson Mesa, and in the cinder hills. Got a buudy that saw a big buck on Hart Prarie road 20 years ago. Another friend of mine has a 90 incher mounted in his house that he killed on Chino Point, North of Seligman, about that long ago too. Used to be some absolute toads on McMillan Mesa in the middle of Flagstaff (still have pictures of a 120" road kill), but I think they ALL got road killed out since I ain't seent any for about 5 years. They just aren't in any numbers in these fringe areas to get excited about. I do have a couple of salt licks in.. uh, ..*... !!@#$ 0 -- Dang! my typing finger's cramping up!

Mike

[deernut]

I think many people have noticed this and it is certainly true. The Altar Valley (GMU 36ABC) is the best example of this. I don't have an explanation and don't know of anyone who has any more than a theory. My theory is that because mule deer populations are at least half what they were in the mid-1980s, that has left deer habitat vacant or nearly so around the foothills and in the flats. This lower density desert mule deer population allowed whitetails to use that space. Whitetails occupy snowy forested areas all over the country but they can't out-compete mule deer in northern AZ for some reason so I don't think whitetail can dominate and out-compete mule deer as a rule. Whitetails are able to weather these droughts better and so their populations have not declined like mule deer. I predict that when we get a series of wet winters and our mule deer populations start rebounding you will see whitetails using these lower elevation areas less. As I note in my book, whitetail can be more aggressive as a species, but their smaller size (relative to mule deer) in the Southwest probably neutralizes their dominance (although their rutting behavior is certainly more aggressive). No one keeps track of hybridization systematically, but most occurrences make their way to me and I, purely anecdotally, think there has been an increase in the occurrence of hybrids in recent years because of this phenomenon of whitetail moving to lower elevations.

 

Ultramag is correct that there are some boomer whitetail that are relatively safe from uninformed hunters in the flats and out on malpai hills.

 

I have a lot of information about the relationships of these deer and hybridization in my new book "Deer of the Southwest" - check out my brand new website for more info. My website also has a selection of downloadable (free) PDF magazine articles and scientific papers on lots of Southwestern wildlife.