SFP vs FFP Scopes and CDS Questions

[IA Born]

I just mounted my new Leupold Mk4 scope.  Its the 4.5-18x52 mil, if that's relevant for these questions.  Its FFP and, just out of the box and mounting it, I love it.  Most of my scopes are FFP now, but it also got me to thinking and I'd love some sage perspectives.  I get FFP being beneficial for keeping subtensions the same throughout the zoom range.  I don't actually use the subtensions for anything after a friend got me onto using the Shooter App several years ago. 

 

1) So here is my first question, how critical is FFP if you're using an app for all adjustments and not actually using the subtensions?  What am I missing?  I'm wondering if, as I move forward and consider replacing more scopes, how crucial FFP is if I'm just using an app for all my adjustments.  Can I achieve the same thing with a SFP scope and save a bit of money, or is FFP that critical if I'm not relying on subtensions for any corrections or adjustments?

 

2) My new Leupold Mk4 is CDS compatible and I get a free dial after I submit the request with all of my data.  Does anyone have any experience with Leupold CDS?  Is is worth the effort?  Any drawbacks?

 

[HuntHarder]

Going forward all my scopes will be FFP.  There reason I like FFP is for wind holds.  In a perfect shot scenario, I dial for distance and hold for wind.  The negative for me using an FFP scope is the bottom end magnification is almost unusable since you can barely see the reticle. Illumination helps with this issue.  

CDS turret is a nice if you typically hunt the same area and your DA is typically within a certain range.  Environmentals start to have a good effect on ballistics around 400+ yards.  Of course, the negatives are no easy way to adjust for significant DA changes and you are locked into the bullet you set the turret up for.

[yotebuster]

I feel like the trade offs for FFP are much too great unless you are using subtensions for your shots.  I won’t own a FFP scope.  I don’t do competitions or games, just hunt.   Here is my list of pros for a FFP

1:  subtensions are the same at all powers

here is my list of cons

1:  reticle is way too small at low power and hard to see in low light (hence why almost all FFP are illuminated)

2:  reticle is way too thick at high power (when you need it fine).  
3: subtensions make a reticle “busy”. People that don’t shoot a lot (often my guns are used by friends and family) get distracted by them, heck even I do when I get really excited.  
 

I personally look for SFP scopes with a “clean” reticle.  I prefer Schmidt and benders D4 reticle or a plain duplex.  I dial every shot.  If there isn’t time then I don’t shoot.  If it’s under 300 yards my turret is set to 2 MOA so I can hold right on and shoot like any other rifle.  
 

SFP isn’t tactiCOOL, but I would argue a majority of guys that own FFP bought them because it’s just what the world told them was best and have no idea how to use the subtensions nor the skill to do it quickly if needed.  There are certainly plenty of guys out there that understand them and use them but I would be it’s a minority.  

[Swivelhead]

10 minutes ago, yotebuster said:

I feel like the trade offs for FFP are much too great unless you are using subtensions for your shots.  I won’t own a FFP scope.  I don’t do competitions or games, just hunt.   Here is my list of pros for a FFP

1:  subtensions are the same at all powers

here is my list of cons

1:  reticle is way too small at low power and hard to see in low light (hence why almost all FFP are illuminated)

2:  reticle is way too thick at high power (when you need it fine).  
3: subtensions make a reticle “busy”. People that don’t shoot a lot (often my guns are used by friends and family) get distracted by them, heck even I do when I get really excited.  
 

I personally look for SFP scopes with a “clean” reticle.  I prefer Schmidt and benders D4 reticle or a plain duplex.  I dial every shot.  If there isn’t time then I don’t shoot.  If it’s under 300 yards my turret is set to 2 MOA so I can hold right on and shoot like any other rifle.  
 

SFP isn’t tactiCOOL, but I would argue a majority of guys that own FFP bought them because it’s just what the world told them was best and have no idea how to use the subtensions nor the skill to do it quickly if needed.  There are certainly plenty of guys out there that understand them and use them but I would be it’s a minority.  

Agree 100%, subtensions are not rookie friendly.

[maximus]

3 hours ago, HuntHarder said:

Going forward all my scopes will be FFP.  There reason I like FFP is for wind holds.  In a perfect shot scenario, I dial for distance and hold for wind.  The negative for me using an FFP scope is the bottom end magnification is almost unusable since you can barely see the reticle. Illumination helps with this issue.  

CDS turret is a nice if you typically hunt the same area and your DA is typically within a certain range.  Environmentals start to have a good effect on ballistics around 400+ yards.  Of course, the negatives are no easy way to adjust for significant DA changes and you are locked into the bullet you set the turret up for.

Pardon my ignorance, what is DA?

[KaibabHunter]

Density altitude I assume.

i use CDS for hunting and think it’s fine for getting in the kill zone of animals up to moderate distances. Probably not as precise as dialing moa/mils. Our longest shot is 460 but all but that one are 80-320. We’ve hit target rocks out to 700. I think Leupold tries to account for a general density altitude when u give them the elevation and temp range you plan on hunting to cover those bases in your turret. Again probably not as precise as getting current environmentals at the time or day of the shot. I have a turret for the desert and one for up north.

I use and understand moa typically but the gun is used by more than just me by those that don’t. I find it super handy when kids or buddies who don’t understand MOA/Mils are using your gun. Paired with the leupold TBR rangefinder and the bullets load group it has been accurate and simple for us. But like hunt harder said u are locked into one bullet and if there were large DA changes you can’t really fine tune your dope other than dialing for more/less yardage vs adjusting to the 1/4 MOA if that makes sense.

[nateNAU]

I have been a gunsmith for the past 20 years and have seen substantial changes in the industry, from barrel rifling techniques, metallurgy and a list of others but the advancements of scopes is by far some of the most i am impressed with. No more the days of taping a dope chart to your stock or lense cap and trying to hold over or running the risk of adjusting a scope without a zero stop. The cds system from leupold is fantastic. I set up a 6.5 prc for wyoming antelope and haven't looked back. Took 3 antelope in wyoming from 200 to 480 yards, every one through the heart. Took my father and law out on his champ 7e tag and he drilled a stud through the heart at 525 after less than half a box of ammo practicing on my gun. Even my 9 year old son can drill a pie pan at any range out to 800 yards. My scope is even one of the cheaper models with one revolution of adjustment. The mk4 I think has 2 or maybe three revolutions. How they do at 1000 or past I can't comment on but for a hunting scope, I am putting leupold cds scopes on all my rifles.

[MULEPACKHUNTER]

I had a light bulb moment years back, My only second focal plane scope is for F class target shooting. If you want to improve your groups at 600 to 1000 a high power SFP like the Trijicon ten mile 50 power SFP is the tool to use. Its all about the reticle and power, you can certainly use either but theres always a correct tool and one that will work. You want to talk about crazy,, look at the March scopes in 80 power. This industry has grown and developed at an amazing rate the last ten years. One of these days I will have time to test some scopes, I have my fixture and tall target board but every time I get a chance the wind is killing my target. I just picked up a DNT the one and its dang nice glass, the Athlon cronus is crazy good as well, I shoot a Riton on my comp 22lr and its very good. 

[dsotm]

Leupold track like garbage