Winchester M70 270wsm VS 300wsm: Conflicted and need insight.

[deserttacoma84]

So I have been looking through the interwebs trying to find negatives and positives of both calibers. I currently own a M70 in 270wsm which I am very pleased with. I just received in trade yesterday a M70 in 300wsm.

 

While I would be inclined to keep both, I am leaning towards selling one to fund the others build. So my questions are as follows..

 

1. Is the M70 action worthy of building on?

2. For Deer (mulies and coues)/ Elk and maybe one day getting to Alaska for a caribou hunt, which caliber would be the best for all around?

3. Are both calibers capable of reaching 800+ yards and making an ethical kill?

4. Would it be worth the effort to change the stock to a B&C Medalist Stock and perhaps look to shortening the barrel to 20"? Does this sacrifice distance or accuracy?

5. Do people use the M70 to build lightweight/longrange builds. ( seems like this is an oxymoron)

6. Do I sell both and buy a Remington? Lol

 

I do have reloading capabilities. Prefer to use one rifle or the other without having to go too far into basically building a whole completely different gun.

 

Comments, opinions and insight please and thank you

[sjvcon]

So I have been looking through the interwebs trying to find negatives and positives of both calibers. I currently own a M70 in 270wsm which I am very pleased with. I just received in trade yesterday a M70 in 300wsm.

 

While I would be inclined to keep both, I am leaning towards selling one to fund the others build. So my questions are as follows..

 

1. Is the M70 action worthy of building on?

2. For Deer (mulies and coues)/ Elk and maybe one day getting to Alaska for a caribou hunt, which caliber would be the best for all around?

3. Are both calibers capable of reaching 800+ yards and making an ethical kill?

4. Would it be worth the effort to change the stock to a B&C Medalist Stock and perhaps look to shortening the barrel to 20"? Does this sacrifice distance or accuracy?

5. Do people use the M70 to build lightweight/longrange builds. ( seems like this is an oxymoron)

6. Do I sell both and buy a Remington? Lol

 

I do have reloading capabilities. Prefer to use one rifle or the other without having to go too far into basically building a whole completely different gun.

 

Comments, opinions and insight please and thank you

I'll answer what I can

 

1. Uh ... heck yes. The main reason people build on the Remington and Savage Actions is that they are tubular, and therefore easier to chuck up on a lathe. There are less 'smiths who take the time and money to make a jig for the Winchester, but it is a heck of an action. Some argue that the flat bottom is actually better to bed ... I won't comment on that one way or the other. Personally, I love the CRF Actions ... grew up on Mausers, and the M70 was the next step in that line.

2. Between the .270 and the .308, I'd lean toward the later. But if you are doing a custom build, you could repipe it for 7mm, which is a heck of a round for BC.

3. That is just a matter of retained energy ... check out the charts. That is affected by the bullet used (grains, BC, etc.)

4. A new stock or pillar bedding is always a good start. Shortening the barrel to 20" will affect the velocity (negatively) and thus the range. Loss is variable, but on the order of 50 fps per inch I think is what I have heard. Might be wrong on that. Bottom line is that the longer the barrel (to a point) the more complete powder burn you get ... so the more energy is imparted on the bullet.

5. Probably less these days than in the past, but they had their following. Again ... a lot of it is due to more 'smiths focusing on the tubular actions due to the ease of working on them.

6. IMHO you can do that if you want an inferior rifle . I personally love Winchesters ... specifically the CRF types that were called Classic and are now the ones produced by FN.

 

Again ... all just my opinion. Certainly there is more aftermarket support for the Remy and it's clones ... but why be like all the other guys/gals???

[Coach]

Can't answer all your questions - but I would say the 300 WSM is a better all around round than the .270 WSM just because you can load it heavier. I have both, and reload for them and really like them both, but if I had to choose one, it would be the 300. It will do just about anything. The .270 WSM is my 2 of my 3 sons' favorite but my oldest and I prefer the .300.

 

At 800 yards, I would definitely side with the .308 over the .270. As sjvcon mentioned, plenty of good charts out there. Retained energy at longer yardage always favors the heavier bullet.

 

I would not shorten the barrel to 20". I think the accuracy would suffer compared to a 26" barrel.

[452b264]

For a truly long range round you can rule out the 270 unless you are using the Matrix 165 gr. bullet. And I wouldn't shorten the barrel of either caliber, they both need at least 24 in.

[bowfishAZ]

For a truly long range round you can rule out the 270 unless you are using the Matrix 165 gr. bullet. And I wouldn't shorten the barrel of either caliber, they both need at least 24 in.

Why would you rule out the 270 WSM for long range?? I'm shooting a 130 grain accu bond out of my 270 WSM and it's trajectory and velocities are way better than my 300 WM with a 165 grain Sierra game king. The 270 wsm is a fast flat shooting round that will perform great at long range. Nosler recommends for the accu bonds best performance that velocity be over 1800 FPS. AT 800 yards, the 130 is right around 1900 FPS. If it were me, I'd sell both of the m70's and pick up a savage weather warrior model 16. It's a shooter right out of the box!

[roninflag]

do you reload? sell both and get a sendero. Or shoot a 10 shot group at an 800 yard target and see what the groups look like. if they are 8" or less keep it.

[azsugarbear]

How accurate are your 270 & 300 WSMs? We spend hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars trying to improve the accuracy of our LR rifles. If either of these are shooters (under 1 MOA in my book), then you need look no further. The Win model 70 is a great action. The only reason to even look at a Rem 700 over other actions is the aftermarket parts. But you can still find plenty of stocks, triggers, etc. for the Win.

 

Assuming both rifles are accurate, I would tend to lean towards the 270 WSM. The 300 WSM will hit harder, but lots of men have been taking elk with a regular Win 270 for years. The 270 WSM has the power to take down an elk at 800 yds. Like bowfishaz suggested, load your own using the 165 gr. Matrix VLD (it's not listed on their website, so you need to ask for it).

 

As far as LR capabilities go for a given caliber, the two things I look at are: (1) How much wind deflection is there for this load at 600, 800. 1000 yds?; and (2) At what distance does the bullet drop below the magical 1,800 fps? Find a ballistic calculator:

 

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/ballistics-programs-web-based-downloadable-9647/

 

and run both the 270 WSM with the 165 gr. bullet and the 300 WSM with any bullet you choose. For good measure, run a 7mm Rem Mag with a 180 gr, Berger. You may be surprised by the results. Both the 270 WSM and the 7mm Mag will outperform anything the 300 WSM can spit out. Your 300 WSM will hit harder, but it will not buck the wind as well - and beyond 400 - 500 yds. it is all about the wind. In all my research, only the 300 RUM has enough powder to move 210 gr. to 230 gr. projectiles fast enough to match the ballistics of the 7mm Rem Mag. The 300 Win Mag and 300 WSM can get close with a 210 Berger, but the 7mm still outshines to 30's. You will be launching a lighter bullet so shot placement will become more critical, but getting the bullet there is still job #1.

 

Here is a link to an article written by Bryan Litz of Berger Bullets that addresses your problem in greater detail:

 

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/30-caliber-1.php

[roninflag]

both the 7mm wsm and the 300 wsm have won a lot of long range competitions. both national and international.

[rcdinaz]

Shoot em' !

 

If you like what you see with (good) factory loads you can usually improve with bedding and hand loads. Even then you could sell one and have a smith build you a semi custom off the one you keep. I want a 270wsm but if I had to pick would go with the 300. More components, more load recipes, and the ability to shoot a big old bullet if you decide you have the need.

 

Winchesters are great guns, don't let anyone tell you different.

[HuntHarder]

300WSM Hands down... Especially if you do not reload. atleast you have the option of going heavy for larger game on bullets. As far as wind drift goes, they are both going to be pretty close depending on how the comparison goes. Obviously if you compare a 165 .277 cal and a 165 .308 cal, the .277 has a better BC. Having said that, the reason guys shoot 30's is the option to shoot a heavy bullet that bucks the wind and delivers good energy. Look at downrange energy of the 2 at longer ranges.

 

Both are great options, but if you have the ability to build a great gun for deer AND larger animals, Go with the .30 and do not limit yourself.

[azsugarbear]

Both weight and design are taken into account with the ballistic coefficient (BC) of a bullet. For two different caliber bullets to have roughly the same external ballistics, they must both have the same BC and be launched at the same velocity. The 165 gr. Matrix in .277 caliber has a .65 BC. The closest a 30 cal bullet can come to this BC is the Berger 210 gr. VLD with a .63 BC. The 270 WSM should be able to run the 165 gr. Matrix at 3,100 fps. For the 300 WSM with the 210 Berger to equal the external ballistics, it needs to have a minimum muzzle velocity of at least 3,100+ fps. Neither the 300 Win Mag nor the 300 WSM can begin to achieve those velocities. The only way to get those velocities is to launch it from a 300 RUM. I have yet to find a bullet with a combo of BC and velocity shot from a 300 WSM that comes close to what the magnums in 6.5, .277 or 7mm can do.

 

You can compensate for a bullet with a lower BC by launching it at a higher velocity. But again, pick any bullet at max velocity from either a 300 Win Mag or 300 WSM and run it through a ballistics calculator. The end result is the same. Here are some quick examples that I ran for each combo showing results at 1,000 yards:

 

The 270 WSM running the 165 gr. Matrix @ 3,100 fps still has a velocity of 1,800 fps and 1,181 ft/lbs of energy. It requires only 5.2 MOA correction in a 10 mph wind.

 

The 300 WSM running the 210 gr. Berger VLD @ 2,900 fps has a velocity of 1.621 fps and 1,225 ft/lbs of energy. It requires 5.9 MOA correction in a 10 mph wind.

 

The 300 WSM running the 180 gr. Berger VLD @ 3,050 fps has a velocity of 1,572 fps and 988 ft/lbs of energy. It requires 6.6 MOA correction in a 10 mph wind.

 

 

But this doesn't tell the whole story. Terminal ballistics need to be addressed as well. A little research reveals that most commercial bullets on the market today need a minimum of 1,800 fps in order to 'open up'. The 165 gr. Matrix from the 270 WSM still has enough velocity to open up and kill game at 1,000 yds. The 300 WSM with the 210 drops below the required minimum velocity at around 700 yds. The 300 WSM with the 180 drops below the required minimum velocity at 800 yds. That is the maximum effective range for these combos. They will still punch holes in paper beyond that, but terminal ballistics becomes very questionable.

 

The difference in energy delivered at 1,000 yds is negligible at best. The fact that neither 30 cal bullet will have enough velocity to even open up cannot be overlooked. Yes the 30 cal delivers a little more energy. While this should not be the deciding factor, simply stepping up to the 175 gr. Matrix in .277 cal will tip the scales yet again in favor of the 270 WSM. The 7mm WSM provides a little more energy down range with ballistics very close to the 270 WSM.

 

Bottom line for me: If the OP's rifle in 270 WSM is a shooter, then he need look no further. Superior ballistics and enough weight and velocity to take anything in the 48 states.

[HuntHarder]

Assuming he has a 1-9 twist barrel( recommended by matrix for the 165), which he doesn't. It is 1-10. And also assuming this one bullet shoots good out of his gun... Look at more practical yardages like 500 yards, the 300wsm using your info has 200 more FT/lbs of energy. From muzzle to 1000 yards, the 300wsm has more energy.

 

Since the OP said he doesn't reload, and could if he had too, suggests he is not wanting to reload unless he has to. Commercially available ammo suggests the 300 WSM has more options with better ballistics. Will the 270WSM do fine? Absolutely.

 

I can not say I know anyone who shoots the 175 matrix out of a .277. If you do, they recommend a 1-8 twist barrel which is probably only achievable with a custom barrel. To each his own, but the only way a 270wsm keeps up with the 300wsm in the energy dept. is by reloading a few bullets. Go to any major ammunition company's page and compare energy's.

[sjvcon]

Sounded to me like he wants to "build" one of these (or another action) up. Not necessarilly stay with what he's got. That being the case, I'd recommend a new stock, new barrel (Brux. Bartlain, Krieger, etc) and a new trigger on a tuned up Winchester action. I'd look to chamber in 7 wsm, because the .284 has some great characteristics. 6.5 wsm would be very cool too, though harder on the barrel I think. Bottom line...Winchester is a fine action to build on IMHO.