Bergers FAILED me horribly

[.270]

Deer and elk are all green chili, that ain't been cooked yet. They're like a kit. Just add hatch's. Lark

[nralifer]

Here is a link I think makes interesting reading concerning bullet expansion

 

http://eu-lrh.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=236

[nralifer]

Trying to learn something about bullet expansion. Actually found a Berger VLD in the 100 yd berm at my gun club unexpanded. That was a surprise since the Berger videos of their bullets expanding in gel are spectacular. Clearly the medium a bullet impacts will influence how well it expands if at all. Also the presence or absence of a tip in the hollow point can affect expansion, as well as the design of the hollow point itself. The .308 caliber bullets below were shot in 10% clear gel from Clear Ballistics. The one on the left is a Barnes 168 TTSX impacting the gel at 2241 fps. The tip broke apart, but the hollow point did not expand. The next three are bullets we designed. The one next to the Barnes impacted at 2060 fps. The third impacted at 2600 fps and the fourth is the an unfired example of the other 2. It weighs 168.7 grains and has an aluminum tip that weighs 1.9 grains. All bullets penetrated more than 25 inches of gel

[.270]

Or you can shoot reg'lar ol' copper jacketed lead core bullets and not worry about it. Lark

[nralifer]

Apparently not all lead core bullets, hence the subject of this thread, and certainly not in The People's Republic of California.

[wish2hunt]

Can't beat a accubond.

[mklong40]

I'm not married to any bullet. I reload for many firearms and have my favorites for prairie doggin, yotes, pigs etc. I shoot hornady, nosler, bergers, all of them. This is just my experience. I have killed deer with Barnes, nosler both accubond, ballistic tips, and partitions, bergers, SMK...I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. I changed to Bergers 3 years ago on the recommendation of one of the most well known guides in Arizona.....not that it matters but I took advice from someone who sees many more animals killed every year than me. It took some time to get the load right. But when I did both for a 7mm rem mag 168gr and a 140gr 7mm08, the results have been insane. My family has killed 4 deer,1 elk, a couple pigs and not one has gone more than 10 steps. The results have been explosive and I mean explosive. I have photos if necessary. The bottom line is so many factors play a role in a bullets performance. You shoot the same bullet long enough your going to have a bad experience. Especially in adverse conditions and shooting over 400 yards. I love the nosler product. Swear by them. 2 years ago I watched my buddy 10 ring a WT at 300 yards with an accubond. Bullet didn't perform and it took 5 hours to find the deer double lunged. Got up and ran. Took another round to anchor it. Stuff happens. Doesn't mean all accubonds do that. My opinion only. I'll never change my big game round out of a .284 barrel. It will always be a Berger. I've seen too many animals dumped trucked with fist size holes in them to change now.

[.270]

That's why I said reg'lar. All this hybrid, solid copper, etc, etc, you have to have different bullet for every situation. Shoot a good jacketed bullet and don't worry about it. Lark

[lancetkenyon]

A "Hybrid" is a copper jacketed lead core hollow point bullet. The "Hybrid" describes the ogive design, a cross between a tangent and secant ogive profile. Meaning the area between the straight bearing surface where it tapers down to the meplat, or the hollow point tip.

[.270]

I've always shot sierras, hornadys, speers, some nosler partitions, etc. Just plain Jane jacketed lead bullets. Never had one "fail". Some of the sierras lose the jacket sometimes, but only after the bullet turned wrong side out. They all killed the heck outta whatever I shot. And I've shot a buncha stuff with all kindsa guns, all kinds a calibers. I read about all these failures and I don't get it. Use something that works. And I'd never use an all copper bullet. Every time I've been around em it was a disaster. Lark

[Upland81]

I shoot barnes mle 150gr 59gr h414 win case and rem primers in a factory Remington 700 adl with an HS stock. I get 3050fps out of it at 70 degrees and have shot a feral pig at 15 feet in the head went down the spine and stayed intact. I also killed a small mule deer at just over 500 yards and it expanded. So I know 100% these bullets wont blow and I get sub MOA if I keep the copper out of the bbl with boretech cleaner. I don't worry about B.C. as long as it's over .300 because dead animals don't really care either.

[nralifer]

We have done a significant number of gel tests on Barnes and the bullets we make at low velocity trying to understand what factors influence nose expansion in copper bullets. Lead is easy to get to expand because it is so malleable, but it also flakes off and leaves a wound channel contaminated with small particles for considerable distances out from the central cavity. The large wound cavitation that is seen in slow motion videos of gel impacts is part of the reason for this scattering of lead beyond the bullet path. The BC on the aluminum tipped bullet matches Berger's 168 hybrid and clearly expands better at a significantly lower velocity than the Barnes, so it should perform better than the Barnes. That remains to be seen. The configuration of the hollow point has a great influence on the ease of expansion. Probably the most reliable bullets for expansion are ones that have lead tips and thin jackets at the ogive like the Sierra Game King. Bullets like Berger have long ogives with small hollow point openings to increase BC by reducing the frontal wave drag, but depend on fluid medium to enter the hollow point cavity to exert hydraulic pressure within the cavity to initiate the jacket expansion. If that does not happen then the bullet will not expand as intended. The hollow point opening is only about 0.035 inches wide at the tip and the cavity is cone shaped. So if the opening gets plugged and fluid does not enter the expansion is not likely to happen. The aluminum tipped bullet is capable of sub 1/4 inch groups.

[.270]

So you're spending all this time and effort to make a bullet that costs 4x what a good ol' lead/copper bullet does, trying to come kinda close to working as well? I don't get it. And, every time, with no exception, that I've been with someone shooting bull elk with copper bullets, they run off. Every time. Even with a .338-378. Perfect lung shots. Track em off into a canyon. If you end up with a tracking job with a lead/copper bullet it is because of poor marksmanship. Nope, I ain't ever using copper bullets and I've quit going with anyone that uses em. Lark

[Mike S]

I have only shot one animal with an all copper bullet... a good sized bull elk with a little 6.5 127gr LRX and it literally collapsed in its tracks with a quartering on chest shot. Only a sample of one, but I think the monometals do have merit on larger animals when your shots can be from near to far. That same bullet shoots tiny groups in my 6.5-06, so what's not to like. Don't find a hunting bullet cost to be that big a concern in the overall picture. Killed a lot of game with Hornadys as well... wore out the .270 tube on my now 6.5-06 with them.

[nralifer]

In answer to .270's concerns I have always been interested in ballistics, and is the main reason I have not hunted big game with anything but my reloads since high school. 2 yrs ago I met a fellow that machined his own bullets out of copper using a small bench top computer controlled lathe. He was self taught, and works the night shift at a local aluminum plant, and also had sniper training in the Army. He knew I was planning a trip to Africa, so he made a beautiful 250 gr aluminum tipped .338 copper bullet for me as an example of what he could do. I was so impressed I took the bullet to Africa and shot a Kudu with it. I also intended to shoot a Cape Buffalo with his bullets, but I saw that the recovered bullet from the Kudu had lost its petals. I did not want to risk under penetration in the Buff, so I used a Barnes 250 gr TSX. One shot in the boiler room and the Buff was down. I saw, though, that my friend had a real talent and was self motivated enough to learn machine programming and some aerodynamics, and was able to program a lathe computer control with a rather complex equation governing the shape of the ogive. He generally got one bullet in three to spec on his bench lathe, but the ones he made had significantly higher calculated BCs than the equivalent Barnes bullets. I decided to form a partnership with him and get a Swiss lathe to make the bullets. The challenge was to make all copper nontoxic bullets with Berger BCs that outperformed the Barnes bullets. The design of the bullets has changed considerably since then, but I think we are getting there. We have had to develop a portable "ballistics lab" to measure BCs in the field at a variety of locations out to distances of 600+ yds, but now we are able to do that and measure the BCs of Berger bullets to within 5% of their claimed BCs. The journey has been fascinating for me. My long range shooting skills have vastly improved, as has my understanding of ballistics and reloading. Lead is certainly close to ideal bullet material for hunting but it is toxic, and since I like to eat what I kill, I would prefer not to eat lead or feed it to my kids. I am not a fan of legislating common sense, and I do not agree with trying to legislate the style or materials used in the bullets we hunt with, but it is a fact of life that laws requiring the use of nontoxic materials for firearms hunting are here to stay, and Barnes has spearheaded the response to such laws. They make excellent bullets, but like all mechanical things, they have their limitations. Understanding their performance envelope and living within those limitations will yield better results. Our testing suggests that they require high impact velocities to expand well. If one understands this and is able to place the shots properly, then the target will drop like a stone. If one shoots a critter in the butt with the world's most explosive lead core bullet, a bit of a tracking exercise is in order. Maybe someday I will recover my costs, but for now I am having a great time and the bullet testing with a successful result is more thrilling for me than actual hunting.

 

As an aside, the African antelope and buffalo meat is some of the best I have ever tasted. The best steak by far is the Kudu tenderloin. Far better than beef.