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AZGFD Dec 7th Commission Meeting - Education Funding

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seems like designating the $8.50 increase per app a few years ago would have worked for this 

12 minutes ago, bassinix said:

But you don't have to buy it, do the research and see if buying that point gets you in the max point pass...if so you wouldn't spend $20 to get that early archery bull tag? If it doesn't get you in the max points pass, then don't buy it and your odds really don't change that much anyhow. 

if everyone buys the point, the bonus pass point is going to jump. 

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13 minutes ago, trphyhntr said:

seems like designating the $8.50 increase per app a few years ago would have worked for this 

if everyone buys the point, the bonus pass point is going to jump. 

No, because the $8.50 per year is once again, a Mandatory Fee. We need VOLUNTARY dollars to fund the public education outreach program. A voluntary super point fits this. 

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It is pretty much extortion if they make an optional bonus point available for purchase.  Does it increase the majority of hunter's chances of getting drawn?  The answer is yes, albeit a very small fraction of a percent better odds.  Point creep will be accelerated and we are inching closer and closer to the wealthy getting better chances of getting drawn.  Again fraction's of a percent better odds in some cases and more in others.  Just do not like the idea of selling "extra" bonus points.  Community service and $ for the point would at least get some stuff done for them and improve habitat at the same time.  

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29 minutes ago, HuntHarder said:

It is pretty much extortion if they make an optional bonus point available for purchase.  Does it increase the majority of hunter's chances of getting drawn?  The answer is yes, albeit a very small fraction of a percent better odds.  Point creep will be accelerated and we are inching closer and closer to the wealthy getting better chances of getting drawn.  Again fraction's of a percent better odds in some cases and more in others.  Just do not like the idea of selling "extra" bonus points.  Community service and $ for the point would at least get some stuff done for them and improve habitat at the same time.  

It's one extra point for that draw that does not renew. Whether you draw or not, it goes away. It has nothing to do with wealth, if I have $20 extra to put towards a draw so that makes me wealthy? Come on. This isn't the tag grab for the rich everyone cried about in 2008. When will anyone be happy?  The point creep you speak of really wouldn't change any different than we have now if that super point expires every year. It's actually no different than the loyalty point right now. Keep putting in, you keep it the loyalty point. Keep buying the super point, you have it every draw.  

And once again, this isn't about habitat it's about public education outreach. It's about informing the non-hunting public about the scientific methods of management the AZGFD uses (the North American model of Wildlife Management) and how the AZGFD has the best interest of all wildlife species in mind already and has it under control. Feed the public that info for a few years and they'll believe it, especially because it's true. That way when the animal extremists start pushing their signature petitions based on emotion in everyone's faces, the non-hunting public will just decline to sign them. That's what this is about. Hunters won't donate to that cause, so we have to figure out a way to fund it differently. Super bonus points are it. 

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2 hours ago, bassinix said:

Nope, that's off the table. The public awareness/education plan has to be funded with voluntary/discretionary money. Period. A mandatory stamp would generate revenue, but by law, that money couldn't be used for the outreach. A voluntary stamp has been tried over and over again around the country, and it never generates enough money to even cover the cost of administering the stamp program itself. Stamps are out, even Commissioner Brake gave up in the stamp and bumper sticker idea. 

That’s not true. Oregon’s stamps make money. Not a lot, but they make money so don’t misrepresent it.

2 hours ago, bassinix said:

But you don't have to buy it, do the research and see if buying that point gets you in the max point pass...if so you wouldn't spend $20 to get that early archery bull tag? If it doesn't get you in the max points pass, then don't buy it and your odds really don't change that much anyhow. 

This is true. Your odds don’t change much going up or down a point if it doesn’t bump you into the bonus pass.

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20 minutes ago, Flatlander said:

That’s not true. Oregon’s stamps make money. Not a lot, but they make money so don’t misrepresent it.

This is true. Your odds don’t change much going up or down a point if it doesn’t bump you into the bonus pass.

20 minutes ago, Flatlander said:

That’s not true. Oregon’s stamps make money. Not a lot, but they make money so don’t misrepresent it.

This is true. Your odds don’t change much going up or down a point if it doesn’t bump you into the bonus pass.

We've talked to the folks in Oregon, one big funder has bank rolled the entire stamp program. They've sold less than 700 stamps in 2 years. Were it not for the wealthy funder, the program would be completely insolvent and costing money...that's what we've been told from people within their fish and game department who manage the stamp program. It just won't generate the money needed. The AZGFD Commission and all the top brass agree with this. Fundraising experts know that voluntary stamps and memberships (with nothing in return other than the "I feel good about this" emotions) just aren't enough incentive to get hunters to buy in. Hunters after to have a WIIFM, What's In It For Me? 

 

2 hours ago, HuntHarder said:

It is pretty much extortion if they make an optional bonus point available for purchase.  Does it increase the majority of hunter's chances of getting drawn?  The answer is yes, albeit a very small fraction of a percent better odds.  Point creep will be accelerated and we are inching closer and closer to the wealthy getting better chances of getting drawn.  Again fraction's of a percent better odds in some cases and more in others.  Just do not like the idea of selling "extra" bonus points.  Community service and $ for the point would at least get some stuff done for them and improve habitat at the same time.  

It's one extra point for that draw that does not renew. Whethwr you draw or not it goes away. It has nothing to do with wealth, so if I have $20 extra to put towards a draw so that makes me wealthy? Come on. This isn't the tag grab for the rich everyone cried about in 2008. When will anyone be happy?  The point creep you speak of really wouldn't change any different than we have now if that super point expires every year. It's actually no different than the loyalty point right now. Keep putting in, you keep it. 

And once again, this isn't about habitat it's about public education outreach. It's about informing the non-hunting public about the scientific methods of management the AZGFD uses (the North American model of Wildlife Management) and how the AZGFD has the best interest of all wildlife species in mind already and has it under control. Feed the public that info for a few years and they'll believe it, especially because it's true. That way when the animal extremists start pushing their signature petitions based on emotion in everyone's faces, the non-hunting public will just decline to sign them. That's what this is about. Hunters won't donate to that cause, so we have to figure out a way to fund it differently. Super bonus points are it. 

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20$ x 3 kids and a wife is a 100$ x 2 draws a year is 200$.  Yes, at the end of the day 200$ isn't a make or break deal, but it is still extra money to stay the the same odds as everyone else...  I will admit, to me the 200$ is not crazy significant, but to other families it might be.  Any time you have to pay extra to stay at similar odds, I call BS.  You will never make everyone happy. This is simply my opinion and clearly you do not agree with it.  That is what makes America so great.  You do not have to agree with me, but you should try to understand my position on this matter.  Surely you did not come on a public forum and expect to sway everyone 11 posts in...

Archery.png

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Bassinix are you that Redpecker guy that was trying to help Pete's group get tags to sell last year? Did we meet at the BPS meeting during that MDF meeting?

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Guys, I have no idea who Bassinix is but if you have been following this for a while then you know my stance and you know I have been as involved as a parent with a kid in and out of the hospital all year can be.

His comments are right on. Everything he has said hits the nail right on the head. Those who got involved and got informed for the most part agreed that dollars needed to be raised. It is also apparent that a voluntary option wouldn’t produce anywhere near what it was going to take. The raffle + auction tag option was the first option brought to the table, the auction portion was quickly shot down. Then there was a long debate about raffle tags, and the commission asked that other options be explored. AWF presented a point option which avoided any raffle or auction tags which is where we are at now. 

The intent of this initiative is to raise money for an education campaign aimed at non-hunters which our state has a growing number of. The operative phrase being RAISE MONEY, so quite frankly if you are here to bitch about it costing you x dollars per year then you missed the point. If you are in a situation that making a $20 donation is cost prohibitive then don’t make the donation. If you are in a position where making a $20 donation on every app every year causes some thinking and reprioritozation (like it does for me), then just do the math and calc your draw odds for each application, and if the extra point doesn’t make a big swing in your odds then don’t buy a point for that app. Easy peasy.

In my opinion this is a HUGE win for the sportsman of AZ. We need to thank Conserve and Protect AZ for getting the ball rolling, that was a big loft and they stepped up before and after the HSUS campaign. We need to thank AWF for uniting sportsmen and finding a solution that raised the money without requiring tags. We need to thank all of the sportsmen who jumped in and wrote emails, letters or commented at commission meetings on the topic.

And we need to thank the commission for hearing the sportsmen of AZ, keeping this in the public light and finding a solution that worked.

Good work team, we are almost there.

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My biggest concern with this opinion is that in the end only a small percentage of sportsman with max or close to max points will purchase the extra point. Personally I will purchase the extra point for my entire family every year in hopes of improving are odds and I truly hope this option raises the funds needed to fight the fight.....Only time will tell but I have serious concerns that this will be a colossal failure.....

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15 hours ago, bassinix said:

There's no tag mob, and if there was, I'm certainly not one of them. People continue to say TAG GRAB when that's never been a valid option being pursued by the Commission on the table anyhow. 

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I would not have posted my statement if you would have came on here explaining your end with out calling out members of this site. Every time this issue comes up you or another of your group sit an instantly tell anyone posting on here they are wrong and you are right and it gets old. With more of your explanations and the research your group has done was posted on here in a non confrontational manor you could probably sell the idea better. I for one like the point idea but in reality it is only going to get money from the top 2 or 3 point holders hoping to get in the bonus pass. It will be interesting to see how much money it actually raises.

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15 hours ago, bassinix said:

They voted to move forward with the next step of further research and dialing in of the enhanced bonus point system. The final version won't take long, nor will it change much. It will probably go for final approval as early as January. The end result will hopefully be: hunters will be able to add an additional bonus point for a fee with every application, completely voluntary. Not required to apply for a hunt. If you draw then great. If you don't, sorry sad news but you lose the super point and can buy it again next year. Commissioner Davis' issue with it is that if you don't buy the point at time of application, you don't have as good a chance at drawing a tag. Therefore, everyone will feel they HAVE TO buy the additional point, therefore it will essentially not be discretionary or optional, it will essentially be mandatory. Of course an extra point theoretically increases draw odds, but we all know the stories of guys drawing sheep and premium elk tags with zero points. heck I had a buddy draw a bull buffalo tag this year with only 2 points. So Davis' reservations cast doubt among the commission and ALMOST caused the proposal to not move forward. Zeiler reigned in control, Commissioner Brake made the motion to move forward with the next step of the enhanced bonus point, it was seconded, and approved 4 to 1 with the no vote coming from Davis. 

Sounds like Davis is the only commissioner that understands the draw system. 

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