lion season

[CouesWhitetail]

The season was closed for social reasons. There was no sound biology to warrant the closure. Lions were at the time, our only biggame species that was open year round/ not restricted, G and F felt to save face with the public and not upset the hunters too much this was the best option they had. They feared that if they said no to the closure that it would set off the antis to put it to a public vote and we'd lose the season all together like California.

 

 

 

I think Andy is correct. I remember when AGFD personnel came to AZ Deer Association meeting regarding this topic and they stated it was not a biological issue but a social one.

 

 

[cactusjack]

I believe you. I am one of the people that shot one, however accidental isn't how I would describe it. I bought a tag, knowing there was a high population of lions in the area. I was deer hunting at the time and got lucky. I used knowledge of deer and lions to fill my tags.

 

How is that different from finding a fresh kill, then running dogs till you tree or bay a lion? Both hunting, both legal. With all the anti hunters out there trying to shut us all down we might want to find a way to support each other.

[Mr. Jonathan]

Lark, your getting all worked up again. Thats 2 days in a row. Don't let ignorance draw you in, listen to that comment again and you will roll over on your back with giggles. Just like TJ said. If i have a tag in my pocket and it's open season then I'm actively persuing the kitty. Besides, how does one demonstrate "activley pursuance". Hmmmm must have to have hounds. If you think about it the general hunters are far less likely to corner a cat than one that has the dogs doing the work for ya!

 

 

Hunting lions with dogs is one of the most physically demanding hunts I've ever been on. The dogs don't make it easy, they make it possible.

[CouesWhitetail]

Lark, your getting all worked up again. Thats 2 days in a row. Don't let ignorance draw you in, listen to that comment again and you will roll over on your back with giggles. Just like TJ said. If i have a tag in my pocket and it's open season then I'm actively persuing the kitty. Besides, how does one demonstrate "activley pursuance". Hmmmm must have to have hounds. If you think about it the general hunters are far less likely to corner a cat than one that has the dogs doing the work for ya!

 

 

Hunting lions with dogs is one of the most physically demanding hunts I've ever been on. The dogs don't make it easy, they make it possible.

 

 

+1

[Outdoor Writer]

I think Andy is correct. I remember when AGFD personnel came to AZ Deer Association meeting regarding this topic and they stated it was not a biological issue but a social one.

 

Dead on, Amanda.

 

It was a move to sidestep a ballot initiative that would have made AZ into CA as far as lion hunting is concerned. The "social" aspect is also the reason bear baiting during the spring season was stopped. Thus, unlike Colorado, where the entire spring season was shut down by a ballot initiative, AZ managed to retain the hunt by dumping the baiting. And of course, we already know what happened with trapping here.

 

Biology is not always the reason for doing things; often in today's climate, social engineering must play a part.

[Tines]

Cactusjack,

 

Its pretty obvious what he meant by "accidental". I buy a lion tag every year in case I "accidentally" find one, Just like most WT hunters do. Even then, as much time as I spend behind the binos, the only lion I've glassed up was in Mexico. Guess that makes me a terrible glasser.

 

Show me someone who thinks hunting with dogs is "easy" and I'll show you someone pretty ignorant. What little I know about being a houndsman is that if you think that finding a fresh kill means you'll have a cat in a tree within an hour is far from the case.

 

IMO, a dedicated lion hunter will see a fraction of the success, yet spend 10x the amount of time in the field than most "hunters"...

[bowhuntaz1]

I feel lions should only be harvested if you are actively persuing lions. Most lions are killed by guys out hunting other big game and happen to see them. If that is OK why cant a guy out running his hounds shoot a big whitetail when he rides by it ?

 

When I have a tag in my pocket, I'm actively persuing them at all times during open season.

 

TJ

 

 

+1

[Outdoor Writer]

I would love to see the statistics on how many lions are killed by "hunters" and by houndsmen. Me thinks those numbers will favor the houndsmen.

 

 

Ask and you shall receive. The stats are readily avaiable in any of the AZ Hunt books.

 

YR. ----WOD*---WD*

 

2000 -- 276 -- 193

2001-- 326 -- 214

2002 -- 264 -- 175

2003 -- 218 -- 164

2004 -- 247 -- 167

2005 -- 204 -- 120

2006 -- 221 --136

2007 -- 256 -- 163

2008 -- 265 -- 168

2009 -- 246 -- 167

 

*WOD-Without dogs

*WD - With dogs

 

So....it appears only about 1/3 on average of the harvest each year goes to the hound hunters.

[cactusjack]

thanks for the info.

 

I would like to see how many tags are purchased by "accidental" hunters that go unfilled compared to how many are purchased by "real lion hunters" that go unfilled. I have purchased probably 15 tags for the 1 that i took.

 

I've hunted over dogs for hogs when I went to Texas. I know it is hard work trying to keep up with them. It was fun, but I still would rather have a quite day glassing and stalking. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Outdoor Writer]

I had to do some editing on the earlier figures because I used the wrong column for the WOD stats. I had put the TOTAL kill there. Still, the WD is about 1/3 to 1/2 of the total.

 

Obviously, there is no breakdown on how someone who buys a lion tag, which are sold over-the-counter, will hunt. Below are the TOTAL tags sold each year. I would guess 95% or more were sold to hunters who weren't chasing behind dogs.

 

2000 -- 7478

2001 -- 8109

2002 -- 8274

2003 -- 8089

2004 -- 8964

2005 -- 10117

2006 -- 10931

2007 -- 10995

2008 -- 10713

2009 -- 103525

 

Now rather than me do your work for you, here's a link to DL the whole booklet. The section on lions starts on pg. 139. Enjoy.

 

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/h_f/HuntAZ2010.pdf

[.270]

few men have spent more time in the saddle trailing hounds. don't keep hounds anymore, but did for decades. i've raised and trained hundreds of hounds. treed many lions. and bears and bobcats and coons. i've also called em in, jumped em and shot em and trapped em. i have lion rugs i don't have room for, rolled up under the bed. skulls all over the place. this ain't some novice amatuer talkin' here. this ain't some guy that doesn't know what he's talking about. i still get after em every chance i get with folks i know. clb didn't mean if you had a tag in your pocket you were after lions. he's saying he's against anyone killing a lion unless they're with a guide or have hounds. he's an anti-hunter. he doesn't feel joe hunter has as much right to lions as others. it's BS! if he ain't he needs to back up and change his story. there are a couple guys, same guys that are gonna ruin hunting in SE Az with this jaguar crap, that got with the game and fish and got this started. don't really care what the content of the "meetings" was. heck, that one game warden on this sight said, on this sight, that the reason they did it was because some houndmen didn't want to run their dogs when it was hot. he didn't say one word about social issues or pacitying the enemy. so what if they did it to offer some olive branch to the huggers? does that make it better? and mark my words, this jaguar deal is a runaway train and if it isn't stopped now, it will snowball and cause more damage than you can imagine. over an animal that doesn't live here. back to the subject. the game and fish caved and took away 25% of the lion season from 99% of the hunters, to pacify folks that can't be pacified, and some of the houndsmen, not all of em, were in on it. this is as anti hunter as you can get without joining the sierra club or peta. hunters and anglers, the vast majority of which are just joe hunter, pay for all wildlife conservation in Az. we pay for taking care of everything. anti hunters don't contribute anything. but they "ALWAYS" get preference over the guys paying the bills. EVERY TIME!!!! they never have to give up anything. just the guys paying the bills. back in the 80's the lion population on the strip got so high that they killed all the deer and the lions started starving. there wasn't even a deer season, not one dang tag, for quite awhile, because the deer population got so low. the strip. the holyland of mule deer, was wiped out and it will never recover. because the azgfd sat there and watched it happen and they didn't step in until the lions started starving. and that's a fact. they keep saying increased opportunity and they took 25% of the lion season away from 99% of the hunters for no good reason. think about that for a minute. what are ya gonna do when they do it to deer or elk or any other critter because they wanna make somebody that hates their guts not hate em so bad? what are ya gonna do? the nra take a lotta crap because they have a zero tolerande attitude toward any kind of firearm restrction. does joe public need assault rifles? high cap magazines? night vision? machine guns? do they? no, they don't need them. but they want them. and the nra doesn't budge when anyone tries to take that right away. they don't give out olive branches. they don't negotiate with the enemy. that's the way it should be and that's the way the azgfd should be when it comes to taking from the guys paying the bills and giving to guys that hate us. you can't negotiate with someone that hates ya. this is a sign of pure weakness and it is something we'll never get back. you can argue all you want, this is a bad deal for hunters. no biology involved, no conservation reason, no reason as far as the lions. it is just to pacify the rabid dog that is already biting you. lions are a special animal. most everyone that hunts has walked right by one and never knew it. they are a real efficient killer. i think they're really a cool animal. my hunting style is based on what i've learned from lions. i dang sure don't hate em and i think everyone oughta shoot at least one sometime. even if it's by accident. but i really disagree with taking away opportunities from the guys paying the bills. it's pure BS and we shouldn't tolerate it. Lark.

[cactusjack]

thanks again.

 

+1 lark

 

don't give in to terrorists in any shape or form

[AntlerObsession]

"When I have a tag in my pocket, I'm actively persuing them at all times during open season."

 

+1

[Codywhi]

Accidental!!!! Come on!!! There are more then one way to kill a cat I don't think any of them come by"accidents"!!!

[Mr. Jonathan]

It seems inappropriate to me to say that lions were the result of the deer demise in northern Arizona. There are two culprits, one walks on two legs and is responsible for the other - cattle. We set in motion all of the events that have led to the situation of game management in the west, predator control is and always has been a scapegoat. Our land management misdeeds were and are the basis for all of the ecological disasters that both game and non-game species have had to endure. Predators have taken the blame too much for things they have not done. Nature was well equipped to handle predator and prey interaction, it was not equipped to handle grazing, invasive species, and our "fire" management. All hunting and fishing regulation is based on social issues, some of those social issues have biological support others do not.