HB 2072 Sale of big game tags

[Coach]

what is outdoorsmans? Lark.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, The Outdoorsman's is a business run by very accomplished hunters in AZ with a shop on Cave Creek. One of the first to carry high-end optics and always leading the edge of hunting in AZ. They put out the Western Hunter magazine which is a very well done hunting resource. Based on their success and history in AZ, they are understandably in the middle of this discussion.

 

I know nothing about their stance on this issue, FWIW.

[40-year-AZ-hunter]

I'm in the minority of folks that sees an opportunity for positive benefits for all Arizona outdoorsmen in HB 2072, rather than a shrouded conspiracy involving a small special interest group. Maybe I'm wrong; however, I agree with Jay on the best approach to finding out what is intended with this bill by directly asking informed questions of 2072's sponsor. I also think all of us are served best in these type of lively debates by couching our individual comments as "opinions" instead of adamant facts.

 

I have sent an email to Representative Weiers asking specific questions about this bill and will happily post his responses when received.

 

Did you ever get a response to your email to Rep. Weiers? I've been watching for you to post it but have not seen it.

 

I ask because I sent emails to the contact listed for AzSFW with questions that they have not answered. The silence from those pushing the bill has been deafening.

 

Thanks.

[glasmup]

what is outdoorsmans? Lark.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, The Outdoorsman's is a business run by very accomplished hunters in AZ with a shop on Cave Creek. One of the first to carry high-end optics and always leading the edge of hunting in AZ. They put out the Western Hunter magazine which is a very well done hunting resource. Based on their success and history in AZ, they are understandably in the middle of this discussion.

 

I know nothing about their stance on this issue, FWIW.

 

 

The owner of the outdoorsmans is Floyd green. Chris Denham is the editor of western hunter and the new elkhunter mag. Both of these guys are on the board of azsfw. Now that their true colors are out I wont shop there again. What sucks is that I really respected both of them for everything they have done for hunting.... till now..... I guess greed can get its claws into anyone..... sucks

[Jeff Welker]

I'm in the minority of folks that sees an opportunity for positive benefits for all Arizona outdoorsmen in HB 2072, rather than a shrouded conspiracy involving a small special interest group. Maybe I'm wrong; however, I agree with Jay on the best approach to finding out what is intended with this bill by directly asking informed questions of 2072's sponsor. I also think all of us are served best in these type of lively debates by couching our individual comments as "opinions" instead of adamant facts.

 

I have sent an email to Representative Weiers asking specific questions about this bill and will happily post his responses when received.

 

Did you ever get a response to your email to Rep. Weiers? I've been watching for you to post it but have not seen it.

 

I ask because I sent emails to the contact listed for AzSFW with questions that they have not answered. The silence from those pushing the bill has been deafening.

 

Thanks.

 

Unfortunately, I have not received any response from Rep. Weiers. It is very disappointing. I've communicated with several legislators over the past few years and most respond very quickly. I came into this completely open minded and ready to listen. My email to Rep. Weiers was respectful and sincere. I asked him 6 specific questions about HB2072. While I know he has been busy with all the excitement, I believe he still needed to send me some type of response. If nothing else, one of his staffers could have sent me an email explaining the delay.

[Rag Horn]

Here is the problem if you boycott the above places. Where are you going to spend your money to get your hunting stuff Bass Pro, Sportsmans, Cabelas, or Wal Mart? Do you know the organizations they support and what bills they push through? I would venture to bet that they are just as bad as the above mentioned outfits. I am not siding with the bill just saying that we need to be careful who we "blacklist" and boycott.

[.270]

i don't care where anyone spends their money, because it's their money. i kinda wince at some o' the stuff folks buy, but then they probly do at me too. by the same token, i don't care where folks don't spend their money either. if you're gonna be in business, you need to have your finger on the pulse of the folks that patronize your outfit. if you loose it, they may go someplace else. i don't think i've ever been to outdoorsmans or whatever it is. probly never will if it's in cave creek. i've been to alaska more times than i've been to cave creek. if it's the place i'm thinkin' of, i won't ever go there, but for other reasons. this whole deal has opened up a lotta folks eyes to what can happen if they aren't careful. i kinda think the folks pushing this deal are lucky it got leaked out and enough h e l l was raised that it got stopped. can you imagine what coulda happened if this became law? i think they dodged as big o' bullet as we did. everything has consequences. a guy needs to think about the consequences an action may cause as much as what the benefit may be. are the consequences gonna be worth the benefit? Lark.

[bonuspointjohn]

Ah heck... I have decided to cast one more stone into the fray. After a few glasses of merlot .....what the heck. I guess that some of you are looking to abuse anyone who had anything to do with the bill. First and foremost would be Representative Jerry Weiers. He is scheduled for surgery tomorrow. I know if he were as young and strapping and good looking as AZLance, he would jump out of his bed and be on the legislative floor by sunset. Sadly, Rep Weiers is just a shade younger than I am... which makes him a day behind old fart. We did have discussions with him at a meeting this morning. He has hundreds of e-mails and will in no way be able to respond to any of them. The AZGFD has him sponsoring their omnibus bill and that alone will take time. Along with the surgery, and the re-districting of the whole state he has had to read through a lot of e-mails that seem to infer he was inbred from a black lab with a preference for Austrailian Shepherds... whatever. As for Chris Denham and Floyd Green... They were a large part of the origination of the AZSFW. A careful look at the damning evidence of the tax returns will show that.... Surprise... they earned nothing. Chris has not pursued guiding in forever. Floyd as well has not guided that I know of... except to pursue some unruly lions that seem to make a habit of eating sheep and mule deer. The Outdoorsman does a fair trade with a lot of Phoenix folks and advises on what optics and tripods will work best. The magazine that Chris does have a lot of contributors, none of which are on the Board of directors. I am sure that some of you will connect the dots... and the plot will thicken... but rest assured. HB2072 has died an ignominious death and anyone connected to it will carry a well learned lesson. Oh crud... I am late for dance lessons...BPJ

[Coach]

The more I see and read about this, the more I think it was an underhanded deal by the "well heeled" contributors to carve out a little something for themselves, towing along some well-paid guides in the process.

 

If you look at it objectively, we, as AZ hunters and outdoor-loving people have been asked to give up something very valuable for some abstract idea, which they have failed in every way to qualify or quantify in any measurable way.

 

On the one hand, I'm thankful for organizations that are actively persuing the interests of hunters, hikers, bikers, fishermen, etc in AZ. Someone has to be a voice or liaison between us commoners and the big wigs in power.

 

But this time, I think the middle men started seeing dollar signs for themselves as guides and advocates of the high-dollar deep-pocket types that tend to start and fund these "charities" that will one day pay dividends for them to reap.

 

Our hunting resources in AZ are very unique, very valuable, and very much in demand. Much of that demand comes from those with extensive resources who don't feel obliged to wait their turn for a huge bull, buck or ram - I truly believe that. And I feel this bill is just an attempt to move those opportunities more into the hands of those that feel they are more deserving, through their commitments of time and money - because they honestly believe that they are more deserving of those opportunities than those of us who have contributed nothing more than our application fees.

 

What I think they have forgotten is the spirit of giving and selfless endowment. They have paid so much over so long that they feel a certain personal entitlement - and they use bills like this to exact their percieved penchant.

 

I'm grateful to the many voices that stood up and made themselves heard. This could have been railroaded past us in the dark, witout warnign or pretense, had it not been for some diligent members here.

[bonuspointjohn]

I may be headed to dance lessons with pbj after this but Chris and the outdoorsman have always been really good to me over the years. Granted I have only had a few transactions and interactions over the last few years with them but I have always felt like I got a fair shake with them. In addition to great customer service.

I smell a dance off coming in the future....

[bonuspointjohn]

The more I see and read about this, the more I think it was an underhanded deal by the "well heeled" contributors to carve out a little something for themselves, towing along some well-paid guides in the process.

 

If you look at it objectively, we, as AZ hunters and outdoor-loving people have been asked to give up something very valuable for some abstract idea, which they have failed in every way to qualify or quantify in any measurable way.

 

On the one hand, I'm thankful for organizations that are actively persuing the interests of hunters, hikers, bikers, fishermen, etc in AZ. Someone has to be a voice or liaison between us commoners and the big wigs in power.

 

But this time, I think the middle men started seeing dollar signs for themselves as guides and advocates of the high-dollar deep-pocket types that tend to start and fund these "charities" that will one day pay dividends for them to reap.

 

Our hunting resources in AZ are very unique, very valuable, and very much in demand. Much of that demand comes from those with extensive resources who don't feel obliged to wait their turn for a huge bull, buck or ram - I truly believe that. And I feel this bill is just an attempt to move those opportunities more into the hands of those that feel they are more deserving, through their commitments of time and money - because they honestly believe that they are more deserving of those opportunities than those of us who have contributed nothing more than our application fees.

 

What I think they have forgotten is the spirit of giving and selfless endowment. They have paid so much over so long that they feel a certain personal entitlement - and they use bills like this to exact their percieved penchant.

 

I'm grateful to the many voices that stood up and made themselves heard. This could have been railroaded past us in the dark, witout warnign or pretense, had it not been for some diligent members here.

Thanks for the comments coach. A little information would probably help you here. The founder of this organization , Alan Hamberlin, can hunt anytime anywhere he wants to. He has helped drive the price of the mule deer tag to an average of $195,000 for the past 3 years. Now, if I were a "rich" man... and felt this "entitlement", I would hunker down with the rest of the "high bidders" and say "hey, lets all bid $50,000 for the next few years and we can get great tags for a fraction of what we have been. Instead, they have been above board and Alan in particular has tried to increase the tag price so that we could accomplish more projects. Look at the auction tag prices for sold auction tags over the past decade. (I know, don't trust me.. call Ruth Gregory at AZGFD and she will tell you what the tags in AZ have sold for) As for the rest of us... heck, I have hard time with me and my two sons getting drawn on regular dollars, so the "entitlement" does not apply. I hope to dissuade you from your opinion, but that is probably not possible. Just an FYI... the guys who have paid the most have been honorable... and wildlife has benefited.. and ultimately so have you...BPJ

[Swivelhead]

Sad day. AZ hunters need an organization like AZSFW, lobbyist's and all. Sportsmen need representation at the legislature, AZSFW had some wins in that venue. However, HB 2072 was blatant attempt to privatize 350 coveted hunting permits. As written, the bill had zero checks & balances.

 

Had HB 2072 been enacted, a very powerful (rich) "non-profit" would have been created. The men & women involved are intelligent and articulate. Principals knew EXACTLY what they were doing. No amount of rationalization by backers/authors will convince me otherwise. That's the way I see it.

 

AZ has plenty of high dollar tags, we've go raffle tags too. Enough already! Everybody else is on equal footing for the quest of drawing tags. Lets keep it that way.

[elkaholic]

to the AZSFW and the AZSFWC- members

 

 

when you are a member of a group-

 

kinda sad if you are an innocent party to this bill and get grouped for the blame - especially when who ever orchestrated this bill has stood quietly and won't take the responsability.

 

we do not know who knew in advance about all the details - some knew of its idea

 

we've seen only one spokes person that has been defending the actions of the group

 

i doubt we'll ever know- some of you as members may never know

 

but to stand and say I had no part and i do not like this either -and i knew nothing about it - means you've broken the trust of the group as a whole and you may not be welcome anymore -so to say nothing means you get blamed as if you knew

 

bpj did actually state (in part) the presentation of the bill was fatally flawed

 

It's done now - only time will tell the good or the bad .

 

Later guys and gals -

[gearsnagger]

Sad day. AZ hunters need an organization like AZSFW, lobbyist's and all. Sportsmen need representation at the legislature, AZSFW had some wins in that venue. However, HB 2072 was blatant attempt to privatize 350 coveted hunting permits. As written, the bill had zero checks & balances.

 

Had HB 2072 been enacted, a very powerful (rich) "non-profit" would have been created. The men & women involved are intelligent and articulate. Principals knew EXACTLY what they were doing. No amount of rationalization by backers/authors will convince me otherwise. That's the way I see it.

 

AZ has plenty of high dollar tags, we've got raffle tags too. Enough already! Everybody else is on equal footing for the quest of drawing tags. Lets keep it that way.

 

Great summary , well spoken! This beaten horse is now dead! :lol:

[ThomC]

Sad day. AZ hunters need an organization like AZSFW, lobbyist's and all. Sportsmen need representation at the legislature, AZSFW had some wins in that venue. However, HB 2072 was blatant attempt to privatize 350 coveted hunting permits. As written, the bill had zero checks & balances.

 

Had HB 2072 been enacted, a very powerful (rich) "non-profit" would have been created. The men & women involved are intelligent and articulate. Principals knew EXACTLY what they were doing. No amount of rationalization by backers/authors will convince me otherwise. That's the way I see it.

 

AZ has plenty of high dollar tags, we've got raffle tags too. Enough already! Everybody else is on equal footing for the quest of drawing tags. Lets keep it that way.

 

Great summary , well spoken! This beaten horse is now dead! :lol:

 

 

 

This particular horse may be dead but the commission has not received official conformation of such. So, we must keep on watching the "dead" horse and other trojan horses that will appear in the future. I dont think that the ugly head has been cut off yet.

[bonuspointjohn]

Sad day. AZ hunters need an organization like AZSFW, lobbyist's and all. Sportsmen need representation at the legislature, AZSFW had some wins in that venue. However, HB 2072 was blatant attempt to privatize 350 coveted hunting permits. As written, the bill had zero checks & balances.

 

Had HB 2072 been enacted, a very powerful (rich) "non-profit" would have been created. The men & women involved are intelligent and articulate. Principals knew EXACTLY what they were doing. No amount of rationalization by backers/authors will convince me otherwise. That's the way I see it.

 

AZ has plenty of high dollar tags, we've got raffle tags too. Enough already! Everybody else is on equal footing for the quest of drawing tags. Lets keep it that way.

 

Great summary , well spoken! This beaten horse is now dead! :lol:

 

 

 

This particular horse may be dead but the commission has not received official conformation of such. So, we must keep on watching the "dead" horse and other trojan horses that will appear in the future. I dont think that the ugly head has been cut off yet.

Evidently a man's word is not worth much here. For those conspiracy theorists, the black helicopter squads, and .... the paranoid..The bill will not be back. Nuff said. You can now go on to other endeavors.