Long Range Shooting

[Brian Payne]

I had an experience on my November bull elk hunt in unit 27 that left me frustrated and confused. I know it is something that every hunter has to go through but it continues to huant me and I would like some insight from some of you more experienced hunters.

After hiking about 5 miles in the dark into my favorite elk hunting hole my luck was really looking up when after five minutes of glassing a giant 7x7 370 class bull revealed himself across a canyon at about 500 yds. The closest I could get was 446 yds. according to the range finder. I had sighted in my Remington 7mm magnum to be dead on at 250 yds. with 150 grain Remington core lokt bulletts. I put quite a bit of time in at the range before the season and put together some pretty decent groups. I downloaded a computer program by remington and made a printout of the ballistics for the ammo and rifle I was using which I committed to memory. I used a bi-pod on my rifle. I felt confident I would be able to make an accurate shot up to 500 yds. According to the ballistic chart at 450 yds. my bullett should have dropped 24 inches. I put the cross-hairs about 8 inches over the bull's back and squeezed of a shot that I couldn't have felt better about. I shot at the bull six more times, carefully adjusting the height of my aim a little with each shot, only to watch the bull disappear unscathed. I passed on several 6x6 bulls and my hunt ended with out me being able to find another "keeper" bull. I waited 8 years for that tag and with the way legislation is going it may be a lot longer untill another comes. In the mean time I would like to feel like I could make a 400 yd shot on a coues buck if needs be which I'm not feeling too confident about after what happedned. I havn't had the chance to go shoot the gun at long distances which I'm sure would be the first thing I should do. Any other suggestions or sympathy would be appreciated.

 

Brian

[DesertBull]

A few things to consider.

 

1. Were you shooting at a steep angle? Your bullet will hit considerably higher than what your chart says if shooting at a angle(either up or down, doesn't matter.) 2 years ago I shot right over the back of a decent Coues because I forgot to consider the angle factor.

 

2. At the distance you were shooting, "8"above the back" can be very deceiving. Your cross hair probably covers at least 4" just by itself at that distance. If you saw any daylight at all between the bulls back and your crosshair, you probably shot too high.

 

3. Are you sure you missed? I've shot spike elk with 180 grain Core loct bullets that just stood there an looked unhurt. I once shot a small spike 3 times dead center of the chest at 100 yards and he still walked 100 yards before falling over. 150 grain bullet at the distance you were shooting might not have had the energy to make the big bull appear hit.

 

4. 24" of drop seems a lot at 440 yards, especially if you sighted in for a 250 yards zero. According to Remington, a rifle sighted in at 200 yards will only drop 20".

 

http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/c...ults.asp?cal=20

[Benbrown]

Desertbull's comments are right on, but there are a couple of other things to consider.

First, it is unusual for factory barrels to produce the same velocity as the test barrels that are used by the ammunition companies to obtain pressure and velocity figures for the ammunition that they load. I have seen velocity decreases of as much as 200 ft/sec (fps) in 24-inch factory barrels and even more in 22-inch barrels. The only way to know for sure is to find someone with a chronograph and verify the velocity that is produced by the factory load in your barrel.

 

Second, if you are fortunate enough to be near the factory velocity, altitude radically changes the ballistic coefficient of the bullet you are using--the higher the altitude, the higher the effective ballistic coefficient. Factory data are adjusted for sea-level, and if you are hunting at 6,000 ft, there is a considerable improvement in the effective b.c. and you may well have shot over the animal, even if there was no significant angle involved.

 

The other thing is that trajectories are often calculated from a formula that primarily considers the b.c. of the bullet and the muzzle velocity corrected to sea level. I have found both factory data and those in some of the handloading manuals to be considerably different from what you find when you actually shoot the rifle, especially at long range. The only way to be sure is to find a range or a safe area where you can shoot out to at least 300 yards from a solid rest and confirm the trajectory of your load in your rifle.

[az4life]

Brian

 

I have been there, and done that!

 

Both of the follow-up posts are dead on. I would add that Before you condemn the data and results you have from your apparent misses, you might want to go back to the 250 range and test the shot again. It is possible the scope, rifle or even less likely the loads were faulty.

 

I had a scope that could not handle the magnum recoil and was moving every shot. It weas a new Scope, and I went 3 years without bagging a deer after I put it on my gun. When I found out the scope was the problem, I was really ticked .

 

The others have mentioned the variances in barrels, and most MFRs guarantee they are accurate at 100 yds. ButIf proven inaccuarate, send them the barrel and they likely will replace it. I know of 2 people who have had barrels relace free of charge. Apparently bad publicity, and maybe liability is very important.

 

Go back to the range and fire a few more rounds to make sure you are sure of what happened.

[Red Rabbit]

I concur with what Ben said. Remingtons published muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient may be optimistic. Using their data, to be zeroed at 250, you'd need to be about 2.3" high at 100 and about 22" low at 450 for 7000' elevation and 50*

Were you able to shoot out to longer ranges, like even 250 to check the zero, or does the rifle range only have 100 yards? If the local range doesn't have longer distances, try to find a safe spot with backstop in the desert.

Two other possibilities. 1)The rifle may impact differently with the bipod than from a bench, and 2) your scope may have unknowingly been knocked out of kilter. What kind of bpod? If yours is portable, and not an attached model likr the Harris, resting the barrel on the bipod, (rather than the stock forearm on the bipod or other surface), will often cause the bullet to fly high. Get back to the range and check it out so you're not haunted at night by missing that great bull.

I assume you went across the canyon and looked for blood and hair, or bullets in the dirt. Sometimes those big bulls don't even flinch or appear to be hit.

Bret may be right about shooting over him. If he was downhill at a 30* angle, the effective horzontal distance is only 390 yards and your bullet would have dropped only 12-13". So by holding high what appeared to be 8", yes you may have hit the dirt above him.

For about the price of three boxes of shells, you can buy an inexpensive chrongraph like the Shooting Chony Alpha $79.

Hope you get drawn next year so you can put your tag on him.

 

Doug/ RedRabbit

[Guest Ernesto C]

I agree with my fellow members on his opinions. If you put your crosshairs at what you think is 8 inches high,the bull is at 446 yards away how do you know it was 8 inches?? probably you were aiming close to 3 feet high!! Brian dont feel bad it happened to me,beside all the other points from my fellow members maybe the wind play its factor,also what was the altitude difference from where you sight in your rifle versus form where you where shooting at the elk?? How about temperature?

 

Brian it took me also 8 years to get a bull rifle tag and I got one but gess what?? I lost it thanks to the forrest service and also whas in 27.

 

My best advice will be keep preacticing Brian,at different distances,different angles and make sure you do it on paper that way you'll kow your bullet trajectories. I seen a lots of people missing game when they are shooting down hill,there are reasons for that but also there reasons to not miss.

 

God bless and Thank you.

 

Ernesto C

[Brian Payne]

Thanks for the ideas everybody. What it sounds like is I really need to get back out to the range and see what is going on and just put in some more practice. The program I was using (remington shoot) allows for adjustments in alltitude which I calibrated to the elevation where I was hunting. The bull was slightly down hill which may have been a factor I didn't think about. As far as the cross-hairs being 8 inches over his back, this was just an estimate. I was about 3 horizontal cross-hair heights above his back so maybe it was more like 10-12 inches. I was using a 12 power scope so I really don't think I was way off but how far over his back I was as I could see him pretty well with that magnification. Does a muzzle break effect scopes in any way?

 

Brian

[.270]

Brian, without knowing what kinda fps you're rifle really shoots, it's hard to make a real good guess. ya need to know exactly what your rifle does, in the velocity category, in order to know what it's gonna do down range. just the few thousandths of an inch difference in the chamber "throat" that is different in all makes of rifles, is enough to make a couple hundred fps difference, with identical ammo. that's the main advantage of handloading. getting rounds that are custom fit just for your rifle that will shoot the tightest group possible. a 2 or 3" group at a hundred yards can be 2 or 3 feet at long ranges. another thing to think about, after 400 yds' or so, is that any rifle drops like a rock. simple physics will tell ya that a bullet of a given weight will only stay in the air so long. gravity works the same on a moving object as it does on one dropping straight down. we've all heard the story about how if you drop a bullet and fire a bullet of the same weight, at the same time, they both hit the ground at the same time. and that is a true phenomonon. these new hand cannons, like the lazeroni's and weatherby's based on the .460/.378 case are real fast and will shoot flatter than most of the more conventional stuff, but a 180 gr bullet out of one of them and out of anything else will still stay in the air the same amount of time. the faster bullet stays in the air farther, but not longer. all you are doing is stretching out the distance that it's in the air, not the time. once a bullet begins it's downward trip, it don't take long to get there. there is a "corridor" for any bullet/fps combination, where gravity takes over real fast. where a bullet may drop say 24" at 400, if it's sighted in at 200, it will probably drop 5 or 6 feet or more at 550 or 600. once it starts going down, the curve gets real dramatic. and the curve is always the same. you can change the elevation by sighting it in high, but the actual path the bullet takes stays the same. physics is a hunters worst enemy. well, that and uso. find a chronograph and see exactly what your gun is doing and then see what you can do at extended ranges for real. and don't forget about thermals. if you were shooting across a deep canyon, like u27 is known for, there ain't no way to calculate for what up drafts and down drafts and swirls and all that kinda crap can do. just because it's calm where you are, doesn't mean the air is calm out across a canyon. a little wind can drift a bullet a long way at long ranges. and don't forget about the buck fever deal either. even a seasoned stone cold killer like me gets it. bad, too. and sometimes it's just like somebody is snatchin' your bullets right outta the air and there ain't a good reason for missin'. 27 is a heartache waitin' to happen. we saw a couple thugs about 2 miles away, one evening this season and figgerd they'd be in the same place next morning. they were too, only one o' the local guides from alpine ran in with a couple guys in front of us and shot a raghorn and ran off the big ones. never could find em again. my friend ended up getting a real good 50" wide 6x6 with devil points, but it wernt a patch to the 2 we saw a few days before. good luck, Lark.

[Coach]

There is a lot of excellent advice here. One thing I would add, is that nothing can take the place of actually going out shooting at longer ranges to see exactly where your bullet drops. It takes a lot of time, I know, and it's not always easy to find a place to practice at 500 yards, but the more you do this, the more confident you'll be in a real long range hunting situation. You'll also get an idea of how consistent you are at 500 yards. It's amazing how big a 4 inch group at 200 yards can get out at 500.

 

Jason

[Coozdeer]

Brian,

 

All of the advise given so far has been great however I would also add, maybe you were shaking so bad from seeing such a big bull that you flat out missed. Maybe there is nothing wrong w/ your scope or gun. Maybe you just can's shoot very well. I'm not trying to be rude, but these could also be factors.

[fatfootdoc]

Brian, you can probably ignore that last post, not trying to be rude or anything. 27 is a booger of a unit for long canyon shots. There are so many thermals, updrafts, and down drafts in that stinking unit it amazes me that anyone ever kills anything there. It is very disheartening when you miss a big animal. I missed a 100+ whitetail in 36a when I was a pup and did not know about down hill trajectory. I missed another toad last year in NM when I used a buddys rangefinder to range a deer at 350 only to shoot and miss by a mile. I later checked the stats on it and it was only good on non reflective targets(NAMELY DEER) out to 250 yards. I was real happy about that. So hopefully you will get another tag before you are to old to walk and will have more success. AG

[gnoto]

Brian

If its the Brian Payne I think it is. Never believe what Kevin tells you when ranging. You know he did'nt want to see you get that big 7x7 it would have shamed the one you had to opack out for him a few years ago!

 

Seriously on the shot. If you were short you probably would have seen something kick up below him and he probably would have been making tracks earlier. over the top had him looking both ways to find you and he never did.

 

by the way I have been waiting 4 years for that tag and i am assuming its gonna be a few more.

 

G Noto

[brhoton]

this is brian rhoton i tried to send you a e-mail it did not work. give me a e-mail brhoton@empirecos.com. marc showed me pics of your bucks from this year they are sweet.

[105Coues]

AZONECAM is right on in my book. Data is nice for a starting point but the only way to know for sure and gain your shooting confidence is to fire it at each distance and record your findings. I do this and then put a small cheat sheet for quick reference on my stock. I hope this helps.

[elkmaniac]

Brian,

Sorry to here about the miss. I know you have waited a long time for that tag and I was curious to see how you did. We had five clients this year. One went home with tag soup, one killed a little rag horn on the last day. We had 3 bulls that went 335, 350, and 370. Send me an email to elkmaniac@hotmail.com and I well email you some pictures. How did you do on your deer hunt??

Chris Jacob