Guest 300ultramag. Report post Posted March 4, 2009 Shame on Game and Fish. Is there a fine for that? Thats equal to some 1,000 WT deer if not more! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stanley Report post Posted March 4, 2009 I absolutely LOVE all of the second guessing by all of you experts! What the heck would you have done if you were a G&F officer who found this animal in your trap? (That's a rhetorical question BTW, because until you get out there an do the job, it doesn't matter!!) Is it a shame that the animal died? OF COURSE IT IS! Is it a shame that the so called 'environmental wackos' may use this to benefit their cause? OF COURSE IT IS? Is it a shame that you all are second guessing after the fact what actions the G&F took? ABSOLUTELY, IMO! G&F catches a rare animal in their trap (snare, box, what-ever...). They see what a rare find they have, and figure there may be value in collaring it to gather some Intel on it's habits & movements. The animal cannot handle the stress (of either the snare, the box, the collar, sedation, what-ever it was....) and then dies as a result. End of story! Go ahead and play arm-chair quarterback experts! That's the easy thing to do because you weren't there...... :wacko: I suppose if you had been there you would have just released it back and said "hey, let's just ignore it and not tell anyone....". What a joke... S. PS: Sorry for the rant, I just HATE it when "experts" come out of the woodwork and second guess the actions of those who are paid & trained to make the decisions they make! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SO I HUNT Report post Posted March 4, 2009 Guess all I can say if its not broke than don't mess with it (saves money and stays with in budget) Oh another tidbit is why do we blame the upper management HUM????? guess the past says it all. I guess we can raise taxes that seems to be the answer to all problems and it pays for all mistakes made by upper management. Please tell me how wrong I am As far as second guessing I guess the past has nothing to do with it !!!!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rembrant Report post Posted March 4, 2009 I'm with Stanley, you guys aren't thinkin. Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Couzer Report post Posted March 4, 2009 At least they will get a nice life size mount out of it for thier new big office!!! And yes I am second guessing the collar, but your your right this is just my 2 cents!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Huntaholic Report post Posted March 4, 2009 Sad deal for sure. The article said the cat was around 15 to 16 years old. The average life span for a jaguar in the wild is between 12-16 years so at least the cat had a long life and chances are at his age he wouldn't have made it much longer even if he wasn't trapped and collared. Sad deal yes but not as big a deal as some are making it out to be. There's plenty of Jags down in Mexico and I'm pretty sure this won't be the last Jaguar found in the US. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 300ultramag. Report post Posted March 4, 2009 <<<<<<<<<< EXPERT! If a houndsman trees a Jaguar, they are to back off immediatly upon finding out it is indeed a Jaguar. Bottom Line the Salt Ban was put into motion to preserve wildlife and promote animal health and numbers in herds as a whole. Keeping the health and well being for wildlife in sight. But any anesthesia comes with great risks and to me the risk of harming an endangered species does not out weigh the Pros. That big cat was in its golden years and soon to expire, not exactly the most resilient. Its not a fact of being an expert but having an opinion, and I think from a hunters stand point to be dissappoointed by these events shows that you genuinely care for the well being of wildlife as well as the game and fish.. IMO bad call! leave geriatric endangered species be, and just keep tabs on em and when they expire poke and pull em all u want! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 300ultramag. Report post Posted March 4, 2009 man that reply should get an award of some sort Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IHunt2live Report post Posted March 4, 2009 I hate to get into this but I just have to... since we all love to rant. I'm sorry but I'm getting tiered off all the G&F bashing that goes on here. Believe it or not they are professionals that have gone through years of schooling, training, and experience they are far more qualified to make calls then we are. Most people love to find the falt in everyone else but I’m sorry I’m to busy enjoying life instead of finding fault in everything. I bet you that it was not the G&F’s idea to put the animal down anyway, I’m sure the FWS and the zoo vets made the final call on the issue. Like mentioned earlier, we as hunter are the minority and the G&F is a state agency that has to consider ALL wildlife. Its not a “hunting agency”. I will agree that some projects are a joke but this was not. I’ve seen plenty of money being pent on “wildlife” in town studying how house finches beak sizes have change because of the urban diet but an understanding of top predator in an ecosystem as no management implications, I don’t get that one. The article says that it was caught by accident, maybe not true but guess what ever happened to trust, I know they were catching lions in the area. So if it was snared how are they going to get it out, they have to drug it so way not put a collar on it. No doubt that the animals age influenced the outcome but I hate to say it but it was living on borrowed time and I think its better that they have the body then a hunter stumbling across the skull a few years from now and keep it in there house for who know how long thinking it was a big lion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SilentButDeadly Report post Posted March 4, 2009 I guess I'll be seeing all of you ranters at the memorial service tomorrow: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/pr...03-04-2009.html right? The CBD has already issued a couple of these PR's trying to push for a 'Jaguar Recovery Plan' and a look into the death. http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/pr...3-04-2009b.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KGAINES Report post Posted March 4, 2009 I was wondering how long before this animal was going to be used as the rally cry for all the animal rights groups. Macho b the last jaguar, hasn't there been other sightings. I am curious as to how many on here have seen a Jag and what unit was it in. It is also funny how all the blame is on the AZGFD, no blame for the others involved, I wonder if they were all standing there going I'm not going to do it you do it, no I'm not going to do it you do it, let's get AZGFD to do it, that way it falls on the state and not the feds, that way the lawsuits will be on them. This is bad for the animal, the state, the feds, hunters, and people who use these areas (legally), it is a good thing for the peta and cbd types and the sierra club types, it is also a good thing for the drug smugglers and illegals, if the groups get their way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billrquimby Report post Posted March 4, 2009 "i’m also curious to hear what data our lack-of-science game department used when it determined that the medication was in fact safe for use on jaguars, because I’d bet my truck that the data simply doesn’t exist and if it did the sample size is too small to utilize. " You lose the bet. There have been many jaguars darted in Mexico in a study that SCI members have been funding by buying "darting hunts" for at least 15 years. Several jaguars have been darted multiple times. I don't know if Game and Fish has access to the drug-capture info that Mexican biologists have gathered, but that wasn't part of your wager. You can keep your truck if you'll quit bashing the only state wildlife agency we Arizona hunters have. Bill Quimby Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IHunt2live Report post Posted March 4, 2009 "i’m also curious to hear what data our lack-of-science game department used when it determined that the medication was in fact safe for use on jaguars, because I’d bet my truck that the data simply doesn’t exist and if it did the sample size is too small to utilize. " You lose the bet. There have been many jaguars darted in Mexico in a study that SCI members have been funding by buying "darting hunts" for at least 15 years. Several jaguars have been darted multiple times. I don't know if Game and Fish has access to the drug-capture info that Mexican biologists have gathered, but that wasn't part of your wager. You can keep your truck if you'll quit bashing the only state wildlife agency we Arizona hunters have. Bill Quimby I don't know who was on this capture but I have a good feeling that one of them has worked down in mexico and has darted a jag before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NRS Report post Posted March 5, 2009 I received a forwarded e-mail from some one in the know on the whole thing. It detailed many things that have not shown up in the newspapers about the whole capture and recapture including how many of the most knowledgeable experts on the jaguar were involved in the whole capture and re-capture of macho B and most of them do not work for the G&F. There is a whole Jaguar Conservation Team for Arizona and New Mexico that had previously established working protocols for an incident like this where a jaguar is accidentally captured so the whole issue had been seriously thought out and discussed long before macho B was captured. An independent vet checked him out in the field before the decision was made to re-capture him, and then he was flown to the best wildlife vets in the country at the Phoenix Zoo. As IL2H said, macho-b had to be sedated to remove him from the snare anyway. The researchers said that the information that they received from the radio collar was invaluable, and even in death he will provide information on how the populations in the US is connected with those in Sonora. and why many of our favorite hunting units allowed him to live longer than any other known jaguar in the wild, even with hunting seasons, smuggling and trash. Chances are his days were numbered anyway, and if he had not been captured, he would have died in the very near future. As the vet that autopsied him said "I expect the histopathology reports to show that this animal had been experiencing kidney failure for awhile. Kidney failure is more a matter of weeks or months, not days.” Maybe some people should put their personal biases about agencies aside and realize that the people in the field doing research are doing the best they can to gather information on often very secretive animals. What they do on a day in-day out basis would be comparable to any of us hunters being able to go out and find a 110+ coues every week and writing a small book about what our conclusions on doing it at the end of the year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elkhutnaz Report post Posted March 5, 2009 Now we should spend all kinds of money to CLONE him and release them into the WILD, Andy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
