An Open Dialog on G & F Laws

[654321]

I know three different people who self-reported and not one of them received a citation.

[rossislider]

I have a friend that took a few kids out for the youth turkey hunt last year. One of the kids shot at a Tom and didn't see the other two obscured just behind him. All three were killed with one shot. They immediately reported it. The warden came out to the location and used it as a teaching opportunity with the kids. No one was cited and the kid kept the bird he meant to shoot.

[trphyhntr]

I know three different people who self-reported and not one of them received a citation.

I know a dude that self reported twice in one hunt. I think he got the minimum.

 

I feel like OP is leaving something out, also OP why are you going around telling everyone you know you're a turkey poacher

[AverageJoe]

There is no way you got a class 2 felony unless they threw in something else on top of the game violation. I am not an internet lawyer, nor a lawyer of any kind. I did study law and enforce it for a while here in Az. Was the new hunter you were mentoring a minor? I would be curious to see what the official charges were so we can all understand your situation better. Wondering if they added something from title 13 on top of the game charges? Like maybe commiting a crime (game violation) but they added the fact tbat you commited a crime with a deadly weapon in presence of a minor? The whole thing doesnt seem right, and if that is the true story i would contact your congressman, news stations, and anyone else willing to listen. Thats a bunch of BS and should be overturned. Also get a new lawyer.

[BeardownAZ]

Never invite "the man" into your life. Unfortunately you are learning that the hard way now.

[Jazz]

...

 

Ouch. And I don't know where to go with this. I'm hoping a license is ALL you lost.. I'd hate to think of loosing the other god given's.

[azsugarbear]

Yah, I knew this would go off track. I really wanted the focus of this thread to be about a possible change in laws. But, before we can get there, I guess we need to discuss some other items that appear to be a distraction:

 

trphyhntr: to my mind, a poacher is someone who intentionally sets out to break the laws and illegally take game. I submit that a spur of the moment 'bad/poor' decision when hunting does not put one in the same class as someone who goes out at night spotlighting deer, killing one and then hiding it in his barn. Perhaps to you they are one and them same. If so, you have weighed in on the matter and I thank you for your opinion. Your "hang 'em all" opinion has been noted. And for the record, I am not telling everyone that I am a poacher. I am telling people, "I made an honest mistake and here is what happened to me".

 

bonecollector777: I suppose we could go back and forth about felony vs. misdemeanor, but for the sake of argument - let's say you are right. That still makes it a criminal charge. Hopefully, that will get us back on track: When a hunter makes a mistake without "intent", sould it be a criminal charge or a civil citation? A criminal citation opens the door for Game & Fish to take another shot at you through a civil violation. (More on this later).

 

General back-fill on story: the hunter with me was an adult. We each had a tag. I was not paid. I was simply help my friend get into the sport of hunting. We were in a ground blind. We had a prior agreement that we would both shoot at the flock at the same time to increase our chances of both getting our turkey. I would shoot a bird from my side of the flock. He would shoot one on his side. The plan worked perfectly. We both fired at the same time. My bird dropped in front of a pinon tree. I asked him if he got his. His reply was "I don't know, I don't see it". That was followed shortly by "Oh wait a minute, there it is in front of the tree". As many of you know, visibility is not great when there are two adults in a small blind. My immediate thought was: great, he shot my bird, or he missed and thinks that my bird is the one he was aiming at. Rather than correct him, I decided to let him have "my" bird. I wanted his first turkey hunt to be a positve experience. There was a poult still running around, so I elected to shoot it for the gumbo pot back home. We exited the blind and began walking towards the turkey in front of the pinon when all of a sudden, another turkey, hidden behind a log, began to flap its wings. My friend said, "Oh there's my turkey". Yes - I would have made a different choice today. But that is exactly the way it went down. Nothing more sinister than that. Nothing left out.

 

Now, here is what happened after the citation was issued: The prosecutor's office was of no help to me (they weren't supposed to help me). My brother helped where he could, but he is a civil attorney, not a criminal attorney. I started doing research and talking to everyone I could. I consulted with another brother who is a judge in a municipality. Based on what I told him, he stated that there was very little chance a judge could find me innocent of the charges based on my own written confession. My criminal attorney suggested something called a diversion program. It is not available in every county and is not automatically offered to a defendant. My attorney requested the diversion program and the county prosecutor granted the request.

 

The diversion program is much like probation, except diversion is voluntary and comes before guilt or innocence is determined. Probation is after the fact. A guilty plea is agreed to by the defendant in advance, which is put into a 'drawer' and forgotten about as long as defendant abides by the terms of the diversion program. If he violates the terms, then he has already given up his right to a trial and the guilty verdict is entered. If he successfully completes the program then the violation is expunged from his record. The terms of the year-long diversion program are:

1) must obey all local, state and federal laws

2) must report monthly to program administrator that address remains current and there has been no negative contact with any LE Agency

3) cannot knowingly associate with anyone on probation, parole, or criminal charges pending

4) must abstain from committing any alcohol or illegal drug offenses. must submit to a drug test (paid for by defendant) at the sole discretion of the Program Manager.

5) must not possess or control any firearm or deadly weapon w/o knowledge or consent of Program Manager

6) must pay $250 fee for administrative costs of Diversion program

7) must complete a hunter safety course and supply certificate to Program Manager

8) must immediately notify Manager of change in employment status

9) must submit to a search and seizure of my person or property by Manager or other LE at Manager's request at any time, day or night with or without probable cause (direct quote here).

 

The alternative to entering the program would have been to take my chances in court. If found guilty, the judge would have passed some kind of sentence - most likely a fine and community service. The bad part of being found guilty is that it opens the door for Game & Fish to come after you the civil courts. Remember: your first go-around was in the criminal courts. Now Game and Fish can choose to take another bite of the apple through the civil courts. The civil penalty for shooting a turkey is another $250 (set by law), plus they also have the option of revocation, suspension, or denial of a hunting license for up to five years.

 

 

Guys - the final upshot here is that I made a mistake. I did not expect to get off 'scot-free'. I expected to pay a fine and possibly do some community service. What I ended up with a cash outlay of $2,750. $2,500 for legal representation that made the diversion program available to me; plus $250 in program fees. Add to that the worry of an unannounced demand for a search of my house or a drug test that could come in the middle of the night. And then live with that cloud hanging over you for a year. By this point, I no longer was very trusting of any government agency to play fair with me. My chosen course of action was preferable than giving AZGFD the ability to revoke or suspend my hunting license.

 

So again, I put to you the question: Should a self-reported incident where there was no prior intent to break the law be a mandatory criminal misdemeanor, or should the law be changed to a civil fine and/or penalty, thereby eliminating the need to hire legal counsel and avoiding the chance for Game & Fish coming at you a second time?

 

BTW - We all know people who have gotten off with a warning. But the law (ARS 17-309 e) clearly states: "A peace officer who knowingly fails to enforce a lawful rule of the commission or this title is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor". Any latitude an officer has is taken at his own risk. Why not make new laws where latitude is spelled out, rather than being applied in an arbitrary or capricious manner?

[trphyhntr]

I was being sarcastic I don't think you're a poacher but I wouldn't go out of my way to tell everyone because they might think so

[azsugarbear]

I get it, but I'm willing to endure some humiliation in order to educate other hunters about what can happen when they self-report. In many respects, I think that is one of the advantages of being a member of CWT and other sites. A free exchange where many can learn. Sharing our mistakes and learning from others is what makes us better hunters. Besides, a little crow doesn't taste that bad now and then.

[trphyhntr]

But what are you educating us on

[bonecollector777]

Yah, I knew this would go off track. I really wanted the focus of this thread to be about a possible change in laws. But, before we can get there, I guess we need to discuss some other items that appear to be a distraction:

 

trphyhntr: to my mind, a poacher is someone who intentionally sets out to break the laws and illegally take game. I submit that a spur of the moment 'bad/poor' decision when hunting does not put one in the same class as someone who goes out at night spotlighting deer, killing one and then hiding it in his barn. Perhaps to you they are one and them same. If so, you have weighed in on the matter and I thank you for your opinion. Your "hang 'em all" opinion has been noted. And for the record, I am not telling everyone that I am a poacher. I am telling people, "I made an honest mistake and here is what happened to me".

 

bonecollector777: I suppose we could go back and forth about felony vs. misdemeanor, but for the sake of argument - let's say you are right. That still makes it a criminal charge. Hopefully, that will get us back on track: When a hunter makes a mistake without "intent", sould it be a criminal charge or a civil citation? A criminal citation opens the door for Game & Fish to take another shot at you through a civil violation. (More on this later).

 

General back-fill on story: the hunter with me was an adult. We each had a tag. I was not paid. I was simply help my friend get into the sport of hunting. We were in a ground blind. We had a prior agreement that we would both shoot at the flock at the same time to increase our chances of both getting our turkey. I would shoot a bird from my side of the flock. He would shoot one on his side. The plan worked perfectly. We both fired at the same time. My bird dropped in front of a pinon tree. I asked him if he got his. His reply was "I don't know, I don't see it". That was followed shortly by "Oh wait a minute, there it is in front of the tree". As many of you know, visibility is not great when there are two adults in a small blind. My immediate thought was: great, he shot my bird, or he missed and thinks that my bird is the one he was aiming at. Rather than correct him, I decided to let him have "my" bird. I wanted his first turkey hunt to be a positve experience. There was a poult still running around, so I elected to shoot it for the gumbo pot back home. We exited the blind and began walking towards the turkey in front of the pinon when all of a sudden, another turkey, hidden behind a log, began to flap its wings. My friend said, "Oh there's my turkey". Yes - I would have made a different choice today. But that is exactly the way it went down. Nothing more sinister than that. Nothing left out.

 

Now, here is what happened after the citation was issued: The prosecutor's office was of no help to me (they weren't supposed to help me). My brother helped where he could, but he is a civil attorney, not a criminal attorney. I started doing research and talking to everyone I could. I consulted with another brother who is a judge in a municipality. Based on what I told him, he stated that there was very little chance a judge could find me innocent of the charges based on my own written confession. My criminal attorney suggested something called a diversion program. It is not available in every county and is not automatically offered to a defendant. My attorney requested the diversion program and the county prosecutor granted the request.

 

The diversion program is much like probation, except diversion is voluntary and comes before guilt or innocence is determined. Probation is after the fact. A guilty plea is agreed to by the defendant in advance, which is put into a 'drawer' and forgotten about as long as defendant abides by the terms of the diversion program. If he violates the terms, then he has already given up his right to a trial and the guilty verdict is entered. If he successfully completes the program then the violation is expunged from his record. The terms of the year-long diversion program are:

1) must obey all local, state and federal laws

2) must report monthly to program administrator that address remains current and there has been no negative contact with any LE Agency

3) cannot knowingly associate with anyone on probation, parole, or criminal charges pending

4) must abstain from committing any alcohol or illegal drug offenses. must submit to a drug test (paid for by defendant) at the sole discretion of the Program Manager.

5) must not possess or control any firearm or deadly weapon w/o knowledge or consent of Program Manager

6) must pay $250 fee for administrative costs of Diversion program

7) must complete a hunter safety course and supply certificate to Program Manager

8) must immediately notify Manager of change in employment status

9) must submit to a search and seizure of my person or property by Manager or other LE at Manager's request at any time, day or night with or without probable cause (direct quote here).

 

The alternative to entering the program would have been to take my chances in court. If found guilty, the judge would have passed some kind of sentence - most likely a fine and community service. The bad part of being found guilty is that it opens the door for Game & Fish to come after you the civil courts. Remember: your first go-around was in the criminal courts. Now Game and Fish can choose to take another bite of the apple through the civil courts. The civil penalty for shooting a turkey is another $250 (set by law), plus they also have the option of revocation, suspension, or denial of a hunting license for up to five years.

 

 

Guys - the final upshot here is that I made a mistake. I did not expect to get off 'scot-free'. I expected to pay a fine and possibly do some community service. What I ended up with a cash outlay of $2,750. $2,500 for legal representation that made the diversion program available to me; plus $250 in program fees. Add to that the worry of an unannounced demand for a search of my house or a drug test that could come in the middle of the night. And then live with that cloud hanging over you for a year. By this point, I no longer was very trusting of any government agency to play fair with me. My chosen course of action was preferable than giving AZGFD the ability to revoke or suspend my hunting license.

 

So again, I put to you the question: Should a self-reported incident where there was no prior intent to break the law be a mandatory criminal misdemeanor, or should the law be changed to a civil fine and/or penalty, thereby eliminating the need to hire legal counsel and avoiding the chance for Game & Fish coming at you a second time?

 

BTW - We all know people who have gotten off with a warning. But the law (ARS 17-309 e) clearly states: "A peace officer who knowingly fails to enforce a lawful rule of the commission or this title is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor". Any latitude an officer has is taken at his own risk. Why not make new laws where latitude is spelled out, rather than being applied in an arbitrary or capricious manner?

I've already made my point that you shouldn't have trusted the game and fish to treat you nicely or fairly. They do what they have to do. BUT for those that wish to self report I don't think they can make a law that says well if you had no intent to break the law then we will just fine you. There are just simply too many different cases and it's not always black and white. Plus they don't want to take it easy on you. They want the cash and the ability at the end of the year to say "we caught all these criminals, look at us and how useful we are". What they should do and what they are allowed to already do is take it by a case to case manner just like cops do with speeding tickets. If they think you legit just screwed up and admit it they give you a warning. A cop giving a warning isn't them not enforcing the law. It's a way for them to say hey you screwed up it was an accident I'm feeling nice so here's a warning don't do it again. THE ISSUE is the game and fish don't choose to do that. They tend to be a little more lenient on kids but most adults they show no mercy. Therefore when they act like that it makes most people not trust them and not want to self report. So therefore most people don't self report because instead of game and fish using it as a learning opportunity and keeping people on their side they turn you into an enemy just so they can make a buck. I have a feeling you learned your lesson regarding trusting them and will make a different choice next time regarding self reporting. I personally would feel better taking home the second turkey, cooking it up and not ever thinking about it again rather than "clearing my conscience" just to have game and fish throw the book at me for something so minor.

These same dudes that are saying "be the good guy and turn yourself in" are breaking other laws like speeding, not wearing seatbelts etc. Yet they aren't down at the police station telling on themselves. We all make stupid or little mistakes in our lives and we don't need the government or law enforcement to "fix" those problems for us. Learn a lesson, be more careful, don't do it again. Done.

I can promise you I know a lot more people that self reported that came out hating the game and fish, not just because they got punished, but how they took something so small and tried to blow it out of proportion treating them like pieces of trash. When they could have just confiscated the bird, scared you a little and sent you on your way having learned your lesson.

[654321]

The G&F can still come at you for their civil fines even if you're found not guilty, they just can't revoke your license.

[Guest akaspecials]

Friends dont let friends talk to cops.

 

For anyone getting into hunting, let this situation serve as a reminder: ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS check if you hit the animal before shooting again.

 

The real sad thing is that people shoot and kill game all the time and dont recover it, then go and shoot at another animal. You got in trouble for recovering it and trying to be honest.

[10Turkeys]

One of my buddy's son, made a mistake as a new hunter, I don't remember the specifics of it, but bottom line he self reported, GF bent him over, he has no intent of ever hunting again.

[azsugarbear]

Based upon my research, I found some 20 states that had enacted some kind a legislation that differentiated between the non-intentional, self-reported violation, and the true "poacher" who willfully violates the law. I am wondering why we don't have that legislation in our state and whether or not there is enough support for it to start some kind of grass roots movement. It was a painful education for me and I felt a criminal charge is simply over-reaching.

 

In my case, I felt the punishment simply did not fit the crime. Am I alone in this? Are there enough others who feel that a change might be in order? If so, then where could/should we start? Just testing the waters.