Thoughts on Baiting

[bowhunter4life]

Tonto Rim,

 

Thanks for your insight and well spoken words, but I have to disagree with you, as a former WLM can you answer the following?

 

If G & F is so worried about hunter success and the number deer being taken by archers, then why is allotted 20% cap on archery deer success is based on a rifle tag holder’s survey card. This is based on a 40% return rate, so archers are mandated by a projected number of successes by rifle hunters. G & F has to guess and use a formula to project harvest numbers “ for the tag allotment each year”, again on assumed harvest by rifle hunters. If G & F was truly worried about the number of whitetail bucks being taken, don’t you think they should have mandatory success reported by all hunting methods? Also 2 years ago G & F removed December opportunity from units 22 and 23 “in the name of two many deer being taken” and since then we have not even meet the 20% cap allocation on whitetails in these units. There have been very few complaints from archers on this loss of hunting opportunity in 22 and 23. So why would there be a concern, if we are not even hitting the 20% cap that was based on a 40% return rate of rifle hunters? Also remembering,this was a knee jerk reaction that added many new units to a draw opportunity for archers. It only took a year before they admitted there mistake and added them back to over the counter tags opportunities.

 

Also you stated, the number of whitetail bucks being harvested is due to higher baiting over the last few years? Can you tell me what factual data that has been collected in Arizona by AZ Game and Fish to show that yes, baiting was the reason for the success. Is this your opinion and G & F opinion that the reason for higher success. Or is this due to higher success from a boost in hunting technology, bows, rangefinders, ect. Or possible, sites like this one that do such an awesome job educating so many more hunters on ways to be successful. I remember just a short few years ago when we did not have discussion forms, and very few people bragged, talked about hunter success unless you were face to face with them. Let’s not talk about trail cam pictures because just 5 years ago, know body had them except 35 mill and they were not being posted all over web sites. So how would anybody know about all these deer photo’s and successes? At that time G & F sent there survey card and hoped for people to respond, again, making decisions on a 40% return rate.

One last item, what scientific data or research has been done on Arizona wildlife on the effects of baiting, salts or water being transferred to our wildlife in the name of CWD and other types? I cannot find any that has been done or is in progress.

Maybe it is time instead of putting more rules on the books to try and stop an assumed harvest tactic, we make all species harvest mandatory and we collect the harvest methods to give our wildlife managers the facts instead of guessing? Or just maybe perform another 3bar wildlife study on baiting? I would think making decisions on factual data would be the logical approach instead of an assumed idea.

 

Thanks Mike

[Airbusdriver]

Maybe I'm being a bit naive here, but isn't AZGFD responsible form managing the population via the number of tags issued? If the herd is "X" (original herd), but needs to be "Z" (the desired herd number), wouldn't simple math dictate that the herd numbers are manged by issuing "Y" number of tags (X-Y=Z)?

 

It seems that given the hunt unit success rates, the increase in technology, draw weights, baiting, etc, etc, etc, are not affecting the actual numbers of the herds, rather, the mismanagement of the number of tags being issued. If the numbers are hurting, then as responsible hunters, we need to suck it up and accept fewer tags being offered to make sure that whitetail hunting is here to stay. But lets not create a smokescreen for the bigger problem of possible mismanagement by legislating a ban on baiting. Perhaps managing the tag numbers instead of hunters' expectations is a more effective and palatable route to consider.

 

As far as the argument that baiting propagates CWD and other communicable diseases: as has been illustrated in other posts, water tanks, rubs, scrapes...all involve transfer the deer's bodily fluids. I'm not buying this argument until I see some empiracle data to support such a claim.

[audsley]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but some important principles are at stake, so I'll weigh in.

 

I just put together an Excel spreadsheet using the past five years (2007-12) of hunt stats published by AGFD for Unit 23. During that period, archers accounted for 52% of the hunters and 22% of the harvest. Success rates averaged 24% in the general hunt and 6% for archers. How can anyone conclude that archers are taking too large a share of the deer and need additional constraints placed on them?

 

It might be different if people were born either rifle hunters or archery hunters and could not change. But if the grass looks greener on the archers' side, why not simply take up bowhunting? That's what I did nearly 30 years ago after I filled my November whitetail tag on the second day and felt the need for more time in the mountains. I bought some used archery equipment and was back out there January 1. Most hunters are physically capable of doing the same.

 

By placing archery tags in the draw for some units, AGFD is already forcing some hunters to sit home or else hunt in a different unit. Why should they place additional curbs on bowhunters in order to keep some rifle hunters from suffering the same?

 

Why not look at it this way. With firearms harvest rates being four times archery harvest rates, doesn't the dept. sell more tags (make more money) for the number of deer harvested by selling archery tags? AGFD should return all units to over-the-counter for archery deer.

 

Going strictly by numbers and logic, a bait ban doesn't make any sense. I can't help wondering if there isn't some agenda I'm not seeing. And I'm not buying the disease issue.

 

And why is baiting so much more prevalent in Units 22 and 23 than other parts of the state? Might it have to do with the difficulty of hunting by other methods in those units? I live in southern Arizona where the terrain is suitable for spot-and-stalk, but I've seen some country in Arizona where the junipers are so thick that I couldn't imagine hunting deer there, at least not by my usual methods. Some of that country is in 22 and 23. Which brings me to the time I was going toe-to-toe with Bonus Point John over this very issue, and I called Pope and Young, that outfit that will not accept trophies taken by "unsportsmanlike" means such as using radios. The man who answered said, yes, they've talked a lot about whether to allow trophies taken over bait, and have always reached the same conclusion: since people tend to do this mainly in places where it's necessary, they accept trophies taken over bait. The problem, he explained, is that if baiting isn't allowed in some areas such as mesquite-covered flatlands in Texas, there will be little if any deer hunting there because no other means is practical. (I figure the same could be said about the country around Payson.) Pope and Young concluded that it's better that deer are hunted over bait than not hunted at all.

 

This discussion took place about four years ago. If P&Y has sinced changed its position, someone can tell me. But that's how they were seeing it when i spoke with them.

 

As I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't hunt deer in 22 or 23, don't hunt over bait and don't even buy archery deer tags any more. But I don't like restrictions that don't make sense and leave me wondering what's really driving the agenda. It's not like we don't have more important things to talk about.

[tjhunt2]

For those of you who think you can have your apple (or cob) and eat it too, you have another thing coming. Units 22 and 23 have already lost their December archery seasons in response to increased whitetail harvests. How much opportunity are you willing to sacrifice in order to maintain your use of bait? How big a fan of baiting would you be if you had to put in the draw for an archery deer tag and were limited to a single 14 day season?

 

Think about it before you decide on this issue. If you decide you still want to defend the use bait, remember what you are likely giving up. Will it be worth it?

 

 

Welcome to the site and thanks for taking the time to explain this baiting issue from a retired azgfd wildlife manager's view. I also respect your opinion and know you are an educated person with lots of knowledge on the baiting issue but I have to disagree with some of your thoughts as well. Sounds to me like you are trying to change a few of our minds by telling us we are going to give up way to much if we continue to fight the baiting issue. I have been baiting for quite a few years and have only shot 1 deer over bait so if it were to go away I would still be successful as I usually am but I'm here to stand up to fight them taking it away from us and won't let your opinion of us likely giving up and sacrificing what we have now. You are only assuming what will happen and you may be right but I'm standing my ground and will fight with those who don't want to see another law taking another method of hunting away that has been around forever. You say this is a stand-alone issue and trust you on this. I say it's just another win for the anti's if it happens and it's on to the next taking away of something else. I do respect your opinion Tonto Rim and thank you again for sharing with us and this is my opinion.

 

TJ

[GotBowAz]

I also respect your opinion and your position in this issue Tonto Rim. Thank you for your informative point of view and your time. However I also agree 100 percent with TJ’s response. In addition I don’t want to see archery OTC opportunities to go away like they did with Javelina. Why in the world they couldn’t have made a mandatory harvest cap on and OTC tag for Javelina like they do for bear is beyond me. If Harvest is the number one reason to loose opportunity and our OTC tags then it needs to be regulated like bear. This way when the objective is met hunters can move on and hunt elsewhere, but they can still hunt. Their opportunity is STILL intact and a draw was not required.

 

I used to enjoy hunting Javelina and deer in the same month at the same time with OTC tags. That being said I was hunting more Mule deer than White Tail back in those days. Mostly because you hunt them very much the same way by glassing open country. Now that it has become a draw I don’t put in for Javelina much anymore and went over to white tail hunting instead. I have to wonder if I did this then how many other archery hunters did the same. I don’t believe baiting stands alone is major success. Our equipment and technology has more to do with it IMO than anything else. You can’t hunt spot and stalk in the thick pines or Junipers and expect to be successful, especially with the Coues white tail. To echo TJ’s response, I don’t want to see another hunting method taken away either. There are other ways to cap harvest objectives then to ban baiting, new technology or making them draw tags if over harvest is the issue. BTY, it stands to reason F&G would make more money from OTC tags as well as more would be sold then would be in a draw. JMO.

 

GBA

 

[ready2hunt]

As others have said I appreciate the professionalism and the information shared however I do not agree. CWD may be a worry but it sounds more like a weak political platform to limit hunt numbers. If the CDC cannot even identify how the disease is actually transmitted why is G&F so sure baiting will curb the spread. There are not many documented cases as previously mentioned. If it is actually spread through saliva or bodily fluid then you would have to get rid of water, natural limestone licks and even keep the deer from humping eachother during the rut.

 

22 & 23 are a couple of the most popular coues units in the state...of course we are going to see more hunters etc especially with the growth in payson over the past 20 or even 10 years. Further more I agree that it is ridiculous to base solid game management off partial reporting numbers. Take any successful business....do you think a 40% accuracy benchmark in reporting will fly???? It wouldn't in my company and if I tried to convince investors otherwise....I'd be out of a job pretty quick.

[WalkingW]

Tonto Rim thank you for the post and your service with the G.F.D. but I think you and a bunch of people are still missing one Big point.

How will this affect others! I guide for a couple of different originations that take kids with life threaten illnesses on hunts. I have guided kids that were full quadriplegic to a young man that was blind at birth and I have found that it was imperative that I use baiting on a couple of these hunts and still knew that it was next to impossible to harvest game. If you would have asked me how I feel about baiting before I started guiding disadvantaged hunters I would have told you a ton of reasons to outlaw it. I now know there are people that need different things than I so I try not to look at it from just my point of view. I know there is guys that spend a ton of money just to kill the animal and there always will but most of them miss the hunt and won’t ever understand what hard hunt is about.

 

I just ask to look at all directions before banning something. Why do people feel the need to tell others what is better for them?

[bowsniper]

Now for those who seem believe the bait ban consideration is all part of a greater conspiracy to legislate hunters out of the means to be successful, I believe you are wrong. Trail cameras, sitting water, tree stands, ground blinds and the like are not the next logical next step beyond this recommendation. This is a stand-alone issue that is about two things; disease transmission and archery hunter success (especially as it applies to Coues whitetail deer). That’s it. Yes there are many people that would gladly take away your and my privilege to hunt. But those kinds of people don’t write rules for AZGFD. Trust me on this. The Department is far from perfect, but the last thing they want to do is regulate you into another leisure time pursuit.

 

 

Sorry, I can't trust you on this. I have discussed this issue with many wildlife managers. Many of them believe that the demise of G&F started with the Heritage Fund. That money was used to fund non-game staff positions at G&F, and those are the are the people pushing the anti mentality at G&F. With this agenda, many wildlife managers fear the AZG&F will turn into another Kalifornia G&F.

 

Also, the stats you talk about are basically useless until G&F has mandatory reporting for all hunts. Why don't we have mandatory reporting? Maybe the data is a little bit easier to message without it?

 

Mark

[kimberx2]

I appreciate your post but i disagree with your conclusion on why whitetail harvest has increased five fold over the last five years.

As a biologist who has hunted unit 23 for the last thirty years. I see many other possible reasons for the increase in whitetail harvest.

The increase of information available on the web, including forums like this one. If you read the success stories and listen to their years

Of experience, it gives newer bow hunters techniques that are proven successful.

the increase of information available by the use of game cameras. You can pattern whitetails without having to

Spend hours in the field. Five years ago this was difficult,imagine having to have all your picture developed

Instead of instantly downloaded to your ipad. Whitetails are easier to pattern than muleys for me on my cameras.

The availability of pop up ground blinds. Five years ago you had to commit to tree stands or build brush blinds

Now you can pop up a scent holding ground blind in seconds.

The increase in the technology of archery hunting equipment. Laser range finders with angle compensation,

faster bows; if you do guess yardage incorrectly the faster flatter shooting bows are more forgiving.

 

 

And my main theory on why the whitetail harvest has increased by so much...

The whitetail population in unit 23 is increasing. I have hunted unit 23 for 30yrs and i am seeing a definite increase in

whitetail numbers. I have been seeing whitetails in areas within the last 4 to5 years that only held muleys the previous

25 years. This is true for other units as well, 24a and 32 are both units I have observed this

 

 

Whitetail and javelina populations have been expanding throughout Arizona since the territorial times.

Elliot Coues was not able to obtain a specimen of a Coues during his stay in Arizona.

The species was named in honor of him even though he wasn't able to shoot any.

Coues were not as common as they are today even in the 1800's.

I haven't seen any current data on their expansion but I have definitely seen an increase in

Coues and a decrease in mule deer.

 

I do not hunt over bait, but my archery success has increased over the last 4 or 5 years.

My friends and i, all long time archery hunters, have seen an increase in success that i would

contribute to ground blinds and game cameras.

I'm sure Azgfd will want to ban these soon enough.

 

 

 

[ready2hunt]

I appreciate your post but i disagree with your conclusion on why whitetail harvest has increased five fold over the last five years.

As a biologist who has hunted unit 23 for the last thirty years. I see many other possible reasons for the increase in whitetail harvest.

The increase of information available on the web, including forums like this one. If you read the success stories and listen to their years

Of experience, it gives newer bow hunters techniques that are proven successful.

the increase of information available by the use of game cameras. You can pattern whitetails without having to

Spend hours in the field. Five years ago this was difficult,imagine having to have all your picture developed

Instead of instantly downloaded to your ipad. Whitetails are easier to pattern than muleys for me on my cameras.

The availability of pop up ground blinds. Five years ago you had to commit to tree stands or build brush blinds

Now you can pop up a scent holding ground blind in seconds.

The increase in the technology of archery hunting equipment. Laser range finders with angle compensation,

faster bows; if you do guess yardage incorrectly the faster flatter shooting bows are more forgiving.

 

 

And my main theory on why the whitetail harvest has increased by so much...

The whitetail population in unit 23 is increasing. I have hunted unit 23 for 30yrs and i am seeing a definite increase in

whitetail numbers. I have been seeing whitetails in areas within the last 4 to5 years that only held muleys the previous

25 years. This is true for other units as well, 24a and 32 are both units I have observed this

 

 

Whitetail and javelina populations have been expanding throughout Arizona since the territorial times.

Elliot Coues was not able to obtain a specimen of a Coues during his stay in Arizona.

The species was named in honor of him even though he wasn't able to shoot any.

Coues were not as common as they are today even in the 1800's.

I haven't seen any current data on their expansion but I have definitely seen an increase in

Coues and a decrease in mule deer.

 

I do not hunt over bait, but my archery success has increased over the last 4 or 5 years.

My friends and i, all long time archery hunters, have seen an increase in success that i would

contribute to ground blinds and game cameras.

I'm sure Azgfd will want to ban these soon enough.

 

+1 And that's the rest of the story- Paul Harvey Great info thank you

[Swivelhead]

This issue can be massaged from every viewpoint. Point is, G&F see's baiting as a conditioning of animals. Baiting is done.

[jim]

The whole message Tonto rim put out there is typical game and fish attitude it's my way or the highway. All the meetings that I went to when they were discussing the dec archery closures had to do with the muledeer herds being hit to hard. Now when it's convenient the game and fish using their retired folks claim we lost it because of the whitetail harvest.

[200"mulie]

no thoughts about it. Spot and Stalk !!

[gotcoues]

It's all about the revenue. If archery success goes up, unit goes to draw only. Too many units go draw only and you'll probably see much less archery tags being sold. I'm sure double dipping the archery hunters because most puchase rifle tags as well is something they can't afford to lose. It all comes back to go buy yours tags and please don't fill them.

 

When the G & F objectives for your average rifle deer hunts are set at 20% success , doesn't that tell you all you need to know

[123456]

I believe game and fish needs to state it like it is. Do not use CWD as a cover. That might be a very small underlyeing result of baiting, but the real reason to ban it is the high success rates. I use bait, and trust me, all of you who say it does not help you shoot more deer are only in denial. Most, ( not all) trail cameras seem to be on a bait pile. We used to put them on water sources, but they were getting stolen to frequently. I know guys who couldn't shoot their way out of a box, but one of them managed to arrow 2 coues deer in 4 months in Arizona. He baited on Mt. Ord and had Whitetails coming in like clock work. Fact is, whitetails definetly pattern easier than Muleys and are easier to kill over bait. There is a reason that all the baits have come on the market in the last 7 years. They WORK!!!!!!!. Otherwise, we would try them once, find out they are crap and never waste our money again. If it is over harverst concearns, AZGFD should own it. Just my .02 cents. MANDATORY REPORTING NEEDS TO BE USED ON ALL HUNTS!!!! Much more accurate #'s are the key to management. I would gladly trade baiting to keep our liberal Archery seasons. All of us know, if G&F doesn't get their way, they will just take it the next year.