jag critical habitat established. any predictions?

[520HUNT]

I predict the AZ G & F will try to re introduce Bighorn Sheep into the Jaguar area, and then will act surprised when the Jaguar starts eating them.

[AZLance]

"ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP) -- Federal wildlife officials Tuesday set aside nearly 1,200 square miles along the U.S.-Mexico border as habitat essential for the conservation of the jaguar, a species that hasn't been spotted in New Mexico in eight years and one that has made only fleeting appearances on wildlife cameras in Arizona's Santa Rita Mountains."

 

Fleeting appearances? I have over 60 confirmed sightings alone of a Jaguar and there are others with confirmed sightings which put total confirmed sightings well over 100. There has been confirmed sightings for over 3 years all in the same area, so the myth that Game and Fish like to portray that they sometime wonder north of the border is a self created myth by azgfd.

 

And there are new pictures that have not been released yet that show there is more than one jaguar roaming southern AZ.

 

I am not supporting closing off any public lands or restricting use... but if they do cut back on deer tags maybe this would be a good thing being that G&F are issuing way too many tags as it is.

[biglakejake]

Arizona is jaguar country-fed or no feds.

 

like it, hate it, get used to it. it works for me.

 

lee

[ForkHorn]

From what I understand, AZGFD was actually against this... and because they control the tags, I doubt we see a decrease. Besides they would fight a decrease based on the money loss alone.

[ThomC]

What good are Jaguars? We dont need no stinkin Jaguars.

[Becker]

Whether theres 1, 2 or 5 of them still doesn't make much sense to me. Is it habitat that they use??? YES. Is it prime habitat that is going to make the species go extinct if it is lost??? NO. It doesn't appear that there is any negative affect on them currently, unless captured. The one or ones that Lance is watching seem to be doing A OK so what gives by potentially closing off those areas???

 

Every Species has some sort of range/habitat that it lives in. On the edges/fringes of those ranges there are fewer animals. Thats just the way it is. Just an example but look at Coues deer. They seem to me to be somewhat similar (range wise). And you could use many different examples. BUT Arizona and New Mexico are on the very north end of their range. I grew up in St. Johns, there are NO Coues there. However 30 miles south and the closet I have seen a Coues to St. Johns is just out side of Springerville along the Little Colorado River. I have seen a few there from time to time. Does that mean we should set aside that very north fringe where they MIGHT/SOMETIMES inhabit because I saw some living right at the edge and got tons of pictures of them because I figured out where they eat, drink, and sleep. Probably not. Thats where the habitat starts to change and their range doesn't extend any farther north.

 

Same case here with the jaguar. It just so happens there is an International Border right in that fringe. I am sure Lance knows a lot more about the history of them in our areas here but from what I understand it seems that history has shown there have not been very many that actually live in southern AZ and NM. Was it more than there is now??? possibly, probably. What that number of actual jaguars that live north of the Mexican border I do not know. But starting to shut stuff down because there are a few, on the very edge of their MAIN range????????? Not right IMO

[muleskinner]

When trail cam pics started showing up on this site and others, several people cautioned against the display of the pics for this very reason. The feds are using things like this to gain control of more land. Would have been better to keep the pics to themselves. May not have prevented this move in the long run, but I don't think it was in the interest of the general public.

[ForkHorn]

http://azgfd.net/artman/publish/NewsMedia/Arizona-Game-and-Fish-comments-on-recent-jaguar-critical-habitat-announcement.shtml

 

Just saw this... AZGFD response to the situation.

[IA Born]

While I agree with what has been said about there not being a need for critical habitat being designated and that money is better spent working in their core area, critical habitat alone will not close off the public lands from hunting. I did not work on the critical habitat rule/designation, but I'm extremely familiar with what the designation of critical habitat means and DOES NOT mean. Critical habitat already exists in many areas for other species that are truly in need of protection and no access to public land has been lost in over 20+ years. I used to work with the land management agencies in southern Arizona to implement projects where both critical habitat and protected species exist. I have hunted in those same areas. It changes land management, but only slightly and often for the better because the land management agencies are also working to recover the species/habitat so protections can eventually be removed. In all of my years of working in the wildlife management field, there has NEVER been a case of restricted access for any recreational activity (except eagle nesting exclosures) on public lands.

 

AZLance's information has been instrumental in understanding where jaguars are/are not and how many there are down there. Yes, there are at least two and because of the number of trail cams, they are more than fleeting glances. I highly doubt tags will be reduced because of a critical habitat designation. There is no reason that would cause the reduction. Jaguars have been down there eating deer for a few years now and tags haven't been reduced. I also agree that there are too many tags in those areas, but the aim has been, in recent years, hunter opportunity, not herd quality. Tags should be reduced in many areas down there to improve herd quality, but the jaguar or its critical habitat won't be the reason it happens.

[2LuckyHunters]

When trail cam pics started showing up on this site and others, several people cautioned against the display of the pics for this very reason. The feds are using things like this to gain control of more land. Would have been better to keep the pics to themselves. May not have prevented this move in the long run, but I don't think it was in the interest of the general public.

We have seen a jaguarundi while hunting a particular unit. Some say there aren't any in Arizona. We know another hunter who has seen one as well in the same unit. Reporting the information didn't seem like the smart thing to do for the very reason you are talking about. In this same unit, some of the ranchers have seen what they are calling a "black panther" which is realistically a black leopard. I agree that sometimes it's best to keep certain information quiet. Just my opinion though. ~ Jess

[couesmagnet]

When trail cam pics started showing up on this site and others, several people cautioned against the display of the pics for this very reason. The feds are using things like this to gain control of more land. Would have been better to keep the pics to themselves. May not have prevented this move in the long run, but I don't think it was in the interest of the general public.

We have seen a jaguarundi while hunting a particular unit. Some say there aren't any in Arizona. We know another hunter who has seen one as well in the same unit. Reporting the information didn't seem like the smart thing to do for the very reason you are talking about. In this same unit, some of the ranchers have seen what they are calling a "black panther" which is realistically a black leopard. I agree that sometimes it's best to keep certain information quiet. Just my opinion though. ~ Jess

I agree, some things are better left unsaid. Information is power these days, and info that has to do with this is better left in a black hole.

[standman]

growing up around campfires at big lake and all around Arizona in the late '60s this particular cat story was repeated by my parents almost every night. in exaggerated form of course...

 

http://azstarnet.com/news/science/environment/jaguar-killing-echoes-today-in-habitat-debate/article_9048bb7d-0729-51f9-b544-653ac5b82450.html

 

Terry is a very good family friend. He and my dad hunted and trapped all the time together back in those days. The day Terry killed the jaguar, my dad was supposed to be along with him. He had to babysit my sister instead.lol. Anyway, I still get to see that cat a lot on his wall as he still lives just down the street from me. Have heard the story told many, many times.

 

Brian

[CouesWhitetail]

To add to what IAborn said, critical habitat doesn't close public land, it just forces the federal land management agencies to consider the effects of their projects on that particular endangered species.

 

You can read more about critical habitat here:

http://www.fws.gov/endangered/what-we-do/critical-habitats.html

 

http://www.fws.gov/endangered/what-we-do/critical-habitats-faq.html

[IA Born]

To add to what IAborn said, critical habitat doesn't close public land, it just forces the federal land management agencies to consider the effects of their projects on that particular endangered species.

 

You can read more about critical habitat here:

http://www.fws.gov/endangered/what-we-do/critical-habitats.html

 

http://www.fws.gov/endangered/what-we-do/critical-habitats-faq.html

 

Amanda is dead on. I don't know that I've ever publicly come out and admitted it on this site, but I work for the USFWS in Arizona. I was in our Tucson office for 3.5 years before moving to our Flagstaff office. I have a very strong, working knowledge of what the ESA is and is not. You'd truly be surprised by what it isn't. I have worked on one listing package and associated critical habitat designation. I have seen the ESA abused by people with agendas and I've seen it abused by people who don't understand it. At any point, I'd be happy to sit down with anyone and have a rational discussion about any aspect of the ESA and what, exactly it can and can't do. In all of my years, one of the biggest lessons I've learned is that people's perspectives change when they realize that there are FWS biologists who have spent their lives hunting, fishing, promoting the continuation of hunting and fishing, and practice/believe in conservation. I've swayed many an ill opinion of "my kind" by using my passion for hunting and fishing in conjunction with my equal passion for conservation.

 

By the way, Amanda, we have several mutual friends! They all speak highly of you!

[Jcubed]

Yes, giving the Feds control over decision making always works out.