Returning tag for reinstatement of bonus points

[el diablo]

Whats stopping anyone from abusing the point system now the way its put above? Only difference is you wouldnt get ur points back the first time. Anyone who is going to abuse the system will find a way one way or the other and no matter what G&f does or tries to do to fix anything or make some happy people are going to bitch. I gaurantee anyone on here complaining gets that call offering the tag thrned in will likely take it.

[Str8Shot]

Whats stopping anyone from abusing the point system now the way its put above? Only difference is you wouldnt get ur points back the first time. Anyone who is going to abuse the system will find a way one way or the other and no matter what G&f does or tries to do to fix anything or make some happy people are going to bitch. I gaurantee anyone on here complaining gets that call offering the tag thrned in will likely take it.

What makes you think they are going to call anyone once a tag is surrendered ? And would you at that point give up your points on a tag without any time to scout or prepare for a Hunt ? I would not ! If G&F offers them first come first serve over the counter without losing points they will be flooded daily with calls to see if any tags were surrendered and of course the other thing you may see is the guy walking in with a buddy ( or maybe someone he is getting $$$$ from off of craigslist) surrendering his tag and letting the person with him swipe in and buy it up .... I feel the best we can hope for is that the surrendered tags are given to the hunting charities like Hunt of a Lifetime... because with something like this in place I am betting they will suffer, losing a lot of tag donations.

 

 

p.s. seems pretty easy to negate most if not any loopholes by making it Once per species on individual applications only . Why does that seem so hard ?

[Str8Shot]

After Heat's response I decided to do a little research ... The term that the Game and Fish is using is " Tag Surrender" There was nothing listed on any agenda for public meetings... The original idea came along with the Portal system in 2014 and you Like I can search all the minutes from meetings, but I will give you the Bread and Butter ... In 2014 a plan for the Portal, bundling of services and Tag Surrender was to be developed by Jan 2015 ... Here is all I could find about any Plan ...

 

Ms. Munig briefed the Commission on the Department’s progress toward rulemaking and public

outreach efforts for Article 1 rules regarding Definitions and General Provisions. This

presentation was informational only and the rulemaking recommendations will be presented at a

future meeting. The Department is looking at developing a synopsis of the significant changes

that are being suggested for Article 1. The two most significant changes deal with tag surrender

and a change to how the 10% nonresident tags are issued in the draw process. The outreach plan

will consist of news releases with solicitation for comment to all constituents and will be

provided to conservation groups as well as meetings held in regards to the Customer Portal.

(Content from http://www.azgfd.gov/inside_azgfd/documents/2015.01.16-17%20Comm%20Mtg%20Minutes.pdf )

 

 

 

After searching News releases ... I could not find anything

After Searching all Meeting Minutes for Public response ... I could not find anything

 

Matter of fact the only thing you will find from the minutes in all meetings( which is very little) is the Portal discussion on implementing the change and Timeline ( was suppose to be Dec. 2015)

 

No clear definitions or changes to Article one rules were presented.

 

 

So if some of you that seem to know more about this than the rest of us can give more insight, I think a lot of people here would love to know.

 

The one thing that seems very clear to me is, that G&F did not fulfill there commitment of outreach as described in the Jan 2015 minutes.

 

[Heat]

OK I'll be honest. I went back into my email and did a search for "Tag Surrender". I guess on July 22 of 2015 I received an email soliciting comments for this subject. I missed it. The email had a link to this document which provides more detail than anything I've seen yet. This document has all the nitty gritty detail.

 

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/fishing/article1NPRM.pdf

[Str8Shot]

OK I'll be honest. I went back into my email and did a search for "Tag Surrender". I guess on July 22 of 2015 I received an email soliciting comments for this subject. I missed it. The email had a link to this document which provides more detail than anything I've seen yet. This document has all the nitty gritty detail.

 

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/fishing/article1NPRM.pdf

Yeah I had found that after my post and searching the Article 1 Statute number ... I checked my emails and did not see anything missed ... I did not see it in the news on the new portal, but Honestly I do not see an archived section, However I was able to find it on the old G&F news feed ( Non Portal ) ... I recalled the thread from the 2014 and how many people were responding but it did look like a thread ( That I over looked ) was started in July Here .. did not see much action on it ...

 

I sit possible I missed a single e-mail ... YES

We all at times miss posts on forums

 

If G& F really wanted input , one would think they could create a Big Button on the portal that makes it easy for all to see when there are proposed rule changes and make it so comments are sent and filtered through the portal .. Just my opinion.

 

I am not opposed to tag Surrender , but I do not like the idea of how it can be abused and we all know it will be abused... We well see what a can of worms it is over the next few years

[trphyhntr]

I for one love the idea, but I'm very interested in the multiple friends or family member points build up "scheme". I have a lot of antelope points and I'm guaranteed a few archery hunts and very close to pick of the liter archery if that is in fact what I choose. I'm also pretty much guaranteed a Utah goat tag at this point. To top this off, family is top priority and if they draw, I want to give their hunt maximum attention to maximize the experience for them. With that being said, in a pinch, I would like to be able to give a hard to get tag back if it fell on a year where we just flat out got too lucky and drew too many tags. It hasn't happened yet, but it's a pretty scary endeavor to know it's coming and I could be stuck with a tag and not be able to enjoy a hunt I've waited A LONG LONG TIME FOR. It's much easier for me to give it back, then say "son, I know you drew that tag, but Dad finally drew this and your not going hunting. Sorry Bud"

 

This is a no brainer idea to me, but....... I would like to see some thought put into the process to prevent obvious abuse.

i guess im old school, or dumb. cuz i think part of the fun is getting to organize your life around your upcoming hunt. the convenience sounds nice but almost feel thats kinda what makes the hunts good, sometimes they are inconvenient and it adds something to the hunt in the end

[.270]

I can see all kindsa shennanagins in this deal. They can't get through a draw as it is without some kinda fiasco. And I don't understand why you'd wanna give a tag back. Hel l, I hunted pigs while I was on crutches once. I can also see where some guy could find out if he was the next in line and pay a guy with a tag to turn it in. Lark

[Shedhunteraz]

Guys....The parameters have been decided long ago....The meetings took place over the last two yrs. The dept went with this and there is no going back. You can either beat a dead horse again and again or work within the system in place. Only a small handful of people even bothered to show at any of the meetings and voice their concerns.....

Exactly Dave. These guys piss and moan and complain but NO ONE shows up for the meetings. They would rather spend time complaing on social media. It's goes farther evidently than voicing your dislike at a meeting

[bonecollector777]

It would be nice if they would tell us about the meeting maybe? Sending a few emails to a few select people to give their input isn't exactly the best way to get the info out there. I know I didn't get an email. Plus even without the people there how could they not see the possibility for abuse by doing it the way they are doing it? It's the perfect opportunity for those guys that can afford to buy a license and point for a few people in your family and get top tags every 3-4 years rather than 10+ years. It's insane Noone thought of this. Unless the guys implementing it are wanting to take advantage of it.

[el diablo]

I think its funny how far some of you can stretch your imaginations. Its if, if, if, if. Well if a queen had balls shed be a king. Like i said earlier, there will always, always be shady people who will work any system put in place.

[Str8Shot]

I have met a few guys with a kid or two that hunts, and I am sure there are a lot more, who buy an extra 3 licenses a year ( for Non hunting wife , Non Hunting Gramps and Grams) and when any of the 3 get drawn they transfer to one of the kids..... Now say they have 3 non hunting people in the family sitting on 7, 8 or even more bonus points with this new way they will be able to throw one on an app with themselves and a kid and give an instant boost to odds of being drawn and keep boosting chances almost indefinitely with every new draw ... heck They will probably just choose to buy bonus points for 2 of the 3 to keep building their bonus point pool.. Oh and while they are at it start buying bonus points for any kiddos that do not hunt and use them in the future .... I know there are plenty out there that already do this with the tag transfer but now they will have a way to include themselves ... The money is not an issue for the people that do this already.

 

Example ...

 

2016

Hunter A on app has 2 BP ( hunting Daddy got drawn last year )

Hunter B on app has 3 BP ( hunting Kiddo No draw helped daddy)

Hunter C on App non hunter Wifey Has 9 bonus points ( only puts in to help kiddos chances to hunt but now forms a BP pool )

 

hunting daddy buys non hunting gramps and grams a bonus point they have 7, and 8

 

Hunters have 5 group Bonus points and gets drawn .... Mommy surrenders tag .. Kiddo and daddy go hunting

 

2017

 

Hunter A on app has 2 BP ( hunting Daddy got drawn last year )

Hunter B on app has 2 BP ( hunting Kiddo got drawn last year )

Hunter C on App non hunter Wifey Has 10 bonus points ( only puts in to help kiddos chances to hunt but now forms a BP pool)

 

Hunters have 5 group BP and do not draw

hunting daddy buys non hunting gramps and grams a bonus point they have 8, and 9 growing for BP pool

 

2018

 

Hunter A on app has 3 BP ( hunting Daddy )

Hunter B on app has 3 BP ( hunting Kiddo )

Hunter C on App non hunter Wifey Has 11 bonus points ( only puts in to help kiddos chances to hunt but now forms a BP pool)

 

hunting daddy buys non hunting gramps and grams a bonus point they have 9, and 10 growing for BP pool

 

Hunters have 6 group Bonus points and get drawn ... Daddy has no problem with the $$$ lost and mommy stays home cause next year gramps is on the list

 

2019

 

Hunter A on app has 2 BP ( hunting Daddy )

Hunter B on app has 2 BP ( hunting Kiddo )

Hunter C on App non hunter gramps Has 10 bonus points ( only puts in to help kiddos chances to hunt but now forms a BP pool)

 

Start with 5 group BP's

 

Rinse and repeat ...

 

Game and Fish is going to make a lot money because for a lot of hunters they will start buying a license and BP for every age legal non hunter in the family to start building a BP pool ... heck probably guys that will be willing to pay for non hunting siblings and cousins too ... It will only take a few and a few years to guarantee a single hunter ( putting in on as a group with a non hunter BP holder ) will always be starting with 4 or 5 or even more BP's

 

Knowing how families with kiddos already have been using the system for years this way , How allowing tag surrender on a group app makes no sense too me ...

[Str8Shot]

I think its funny how far some of you can stretch your imaginations. Its if, if, if, if. Well if a queen had balls shed be a king. Like i said earlier, there will always, always be shady people who will work any system put in place.

It is not a stretch of the imagination .. it is knowing how people already use the system and how $$$$ for a lot is not an issue when it comes to hunting ... With 3 willing non hunting relatives or buddies , and $150 extra spent a year ... within 4 or 5 years you can have you a pretty reliable BP pool so you are never starting below 4 or 5 BP's

[el diablo]

 

 

I think its funny how far some of you can stretch your imaginations. Its if, if, if, if. Well if a queen had balls shed be a king. Like i said earlier, there will always, always be shady people who will work any system put in place.

It is not a stretch of the imagination .. it is knowing how people already use the system and how $$$$ for a lot is not an issue when it comes to hunting ... With 3 willing non hunting relatives or buddies , and $150 extra spent a year ... within 4 or 5 years you can have you a pretty reliable BP pool so you are never starting below 4 or 5 BP's

Thanks for pointing that outt. Ive got some calls to make to some non hunting relatives. I think u missed the part where i said they will cheat the system no matter what. You think too much. Go smoke a joint or somethin and relax.

[trphyhntr]

I think its funny how far some of you can stretch your imaginations. Its if, if, if, if. Well if a queen had balls shed be a king. Like i said earlier, there will always, always be shady people who will work any system put in place.

democrat spotted

[azelkhunter2]

A little more info....There was NO secret agenda by anyone....If my notes are complete there where 9 different meetings held all over the state, If you receive the Game & fish news letter by e- mail you did then receive notification on several different occasions, In addition the old G&F web page had it posted for several months and it was discussed at several commissioners meetings if you are a member of any of the local wildlife org's it was discussed at great length at their meetings as G&F personal we at the meetings just to talk about it. As far as the many many ways to game the system EVERYONE of them were discussed at every meeting till you wanted to slam your head in the door!!!!. The Dept decided after a GREAT DEAL of input that there was no one way that was fair to every applicant in all scenarios so we ended up with this option. You can sit and complain that it's not fair and what if it till the cows come home it won't change a thing.....