Weiers memo

[stanley]

What a train wreck...... Near disaster as far as the VAST majority of hunters in this state, as far as the majority is concerned.

 

BPJ, I'm hoping the ADA can recover from this. I was a part of the organization, served on the board and led the Youth Camp program for several years. I ended-up leaving because my career and obligations to my kids would not allow me the time to devote. I know there are good folks that are involved with the ADA, but my observation was that the general membership was distant. There was hardly any participation from the general membership at the meetings, and it seemed like most of the members only joined to go to the banquet once a year and to get the quarterly magazine. The 'average joe' out there just wants to go hunting with his buddies, IMO. Even this sight is stacked with 'trophy' hunters, but the vast majority of average hacks out there will never even cruise this message board. They just want to hunt, camp, drink beer, cook marshmallows, and watch their kids try to shoot a little buck. IMO, the average joe doesn't really care about land access down in southern AZ. I don't discount how important it may be to a relative few, but the majority will take advantage of the vast public land we have in this great state. Good luck pushing this kind of thing in the future, but I think ADA, SFW, etc. will get much more support if they started to cater more to the average dude, as opposed to 'boutique' types of interest.

 

I hope the organization can turn around and get more involvement from the general membership. The club really needs it!

 

All of the above is ONLY my opinion, and we all know what that is worth.

 

I absolutely aplaud you, Amanda, Chris, Mark, Kevin, Pete, etc.. (too many to mention) for being the few to volunteer, but it seems like the club has evolved to just that; A club. Not a voice for the members, but a voice for the board.

 

Tough stuff.

 

S.

 

 

PS: Be careful calling Lance out. He has done MUCH for wildlife, and Amanda and I have been there by his side on occasion!

[runningbird]

Well said Stanley.

 

I believe you actually took over my spot when I left the Mule deer association many years ago. although there were no youth camps at the time. I left for some of the reasons you have stated but you said it much nicer than I ever would. I also will keep those thoughts to my self.

[krp]

Organizations are not the only game in town when it comes to G&F youth hunt camps or catchment projects, nor are they the only venue for a person to contribute to youth retention or wildlife habitat.

 

Kent

[javihammer]

I expect legislators to read and understand every bill they submit and be able to do SIMPLE math, it is clear this guy does neither. Even if he has the heart to support Arizona sportsman, he clearly lacks the horsepower and understanding to support the interests of Arizona resident hunters. He would have been far more credible if he would have just admitted that he didn't have a full understanding of the bill and submitted it in haste. Instead he tries to reframe this garbage and actually talks down to his constituents in the process...nice.

 

Anyone that is inclined to cut Weirs or AZSFW some slack should just read the bill, you wont feel sympathetic to them after you read it. They didnt pitch this bill because of some imminent budget emergency, they pitched this bill because they were arrogant enough to think they could get away with it.....dont let the smokescreen about the bad economy and land access steer your attention away from the real issue. Here are a couple of additional lightly discussed problems I found when I read the bill.

 

•The bill stipulated that "raffle" tags could be purchased and hunting licenses would only be required after the person actually wins the tag. I would imagine that some non-residents would choose raffle tickets over the "regular" public drawing to avoid the upfront cost of a NR hunting license (which could actually drive down license revenue generated through the public drawing - thereby shifting control of the tag revenue from AZGFD to AZSFW). Some people may scoff at this suggestion but if I were a non-resident and could spend $25 on one of many raffle tickets for an elk or sheep at .01% odds, why would I spend $160.00 a year (and 20 years of my life) to have .03% odds in the regular draw. Adding hundreds more raffle tags would make this scenario even more likely. Also, even if every raffle tag winner was a non-resident, the projected numbers for net new hunting license revenue is way overstated, by at least 300-400% by my calculations.

 

•Also, as many others have stated, adding to the supply of auction tags would also drive down the value of each new auction tag which essentially discounts the price of these valuable tags for the rich guys. Arizona tags are VERY valuable and EVERYONE needs to pay with time or money...no coupons no fire sales. When you consider the opportunity cost Arizona residents have paid for many decades to limit our consumption of the resource, the cost of these trophy "auction" tags seems downright reasonable. When you consider the tax saving implications for the auction winners, even a $100,000 tag can be a real bargain for them.

 

•According to the bill, these "special" tags would not count against yearly bag limits. This is Arizona, we ALWAYS have bag limits, that's why we have world class wildlife in the first place. If you want an all you can shoot buffet, head east a thousand miles or so.

 

•I don't understand how more money for land access will do anything. Common sense says that every dollar in the "land access budget" will be gone almost immediately as even the nice guy landowners will want to get a piece of that piggie bank. Arizona just needs to sue people that block public land or blow a hole the size of a swimming pool in the public road in front of each locked gate and assess a fine each and every time the private landowners go "cross country" to travel around it. After a couple dozen holes I am sure more landowners would be willing to negotiate access to OUR landlocked public land.

 

•Apparently Weirs also failed to read the game regs, if he had he would know about mentor, youth and scout licenses...newsflash, they already exist. Mentor licenses are free and youth licenses are steeply discounted (even for non-residents). We don't need some Obombish welfare program to get more kids into the public tag drawing. I suspect many of these kids are just bonus point banks for their fathers anyway (kids are put in for bonus points each year and Daddy adds himself to the kids group application when the kid becomes a young adult with lots of bonus points they can share - the group application averaging rule needs to be changed but that is another issue).

 

•I also noticed the bill broke the tags into three categories....governor, sportsman...and ???. I suspect this was to make it more difficult for outside groups to challenge ownership of the entire tag pool in the future. I also found it interesting that the bill asked for AT LEAST a specific number of tags for each unit regardless of how many actual tags are approved for that unit by the Commission each year. This "make sure we get ours" mentality is further evidence of greed and proves their altruistic claims for conservation were a crock of bull.

 

I find Weirs suggestion that the opposition to this bill is just selfish or misinformed to be condescending. We don't need political puppets like him "saving us from ourselves". Us dumb Arizona residents recognize this bill was a way to worm away a valuable Arizona asset and a creative way to bypass the 10% cap on tags for non-residents and fatten the wallets of the big name guides and the groups and businesses that profit from them. I found this passage from your response "And for this reason I ultimately decided that the bill in its present form will not move forward" to be quite alarming. Okay dude, we got it, you and your cronies are going to lob another bag of puke over the fence at some point in the future...good luck with that (I hope it hits the top of the fence and bounces back at ya). You kicked the hive and the bees are angry, I suggest you quietly walk away and think twice before submitting any more self-serving trash. BTW - After reading Wiers response and some other members of Arizona Sportsman for Wildlife, it is clear which member helped him craft this rebuttal. I will not be patronizing his business any longer, I have other things to read in the bathroom.

 

Thanks to people like Amanda and the quiet contributors that work hard behind the scenes to keep all of us informed. We should view this as a fire drill and use this as motivation to be alert for future attacks on our hunting opportunity. My bumper has plenty of room for another sticker.

 

Ryan

[40-year-AZ-hunter]

I expect legislators to read and understand every bill they submit and be able to do SIMPLE math, it is clear this guy does neither. Even if he has the heart to support Arizona sportsman, he clearly lacks the horsepower and understanding to support the interests of Arizona resident hunters. He would have been far more credible if he would have just admitted that he didn't have a full understanding of the bill and submitted it in haste. Instead he tries to reframe this garbage and actually talks down to his constituents in the process...nice.

 

Anyone that is inclined to cut Weirs or AZSFW some slack should just read the bill, you wont feel sympathetic to them after you read it. They didnt pitch this bill because of some imminent budget emergency, they pitched this bill because they were arrogant enough to think they could get away with it.....dont let the smokescreen about the bad economy and land access steer your attention away from the real issue. Here are a couple of additional lightly discussed problems I found when I read the bill.

 

•The bill stipulated that "raffle" tags could be purchased and hunting licenses would only be required after the person actually wins the tag. I would imagine that some non-residents would choose raffle tickets over the "regular" public drawing to avoid the upfront cost of a NR hunting license (which could actually drive down license revenue generated through the public drawing - thereby shifting control of the tag revenue from AZGFD to AZSFW). Some people may scoff at this suggestion but if I were a non-resident and could spend $25 on one of many raffle tickets for an elk or sheep at .01% odds, why would I spend $160.00 a year (and 20 years of my life) to have .03% odds in the regular draw. Adding hundreds more raffle tags would make this scenario even more likely. Also, even if every raffle tag winner was a non-resident, the projected numbers for net new hunting license revenue is way overstated, by at least 300-400% by my calculations.

 

•Also, as many others have stated, adding to the supply of auction tags would also drive down the value of each new auction tag which essentially discounts the price of these valuable tags for the rich guys. Arizona tags are VERY valuable and EVERYONE needs to pay with time or money...no coupons no fire sales. When you consider the opportunity cost Arizona residents have paid for many decades to limit our consumption of the resource, the cost of these trophy "auction" tags seems downright reasonable. When you consider the tax saving implications for the auction winners, even a $100,000 tag can be a real bargain for them.

 

•According to the bill, these "special" tags would not count against yearly bag limits. This is Arizona, we ALWAYS have bag limits, that's why we have world class wildlife in the first place. If you want an all you can shoot buffet, head east a thousand miles or so.

 

•I don't understand how more money for land access will do anything. Common sense says that every dollar in the "land access budget" will be gone almost immediately as even the nice guy landowners will want to get a piece of that piggie bank. Arizona just needs to sue people that block public land or blow a hole the size of a swimming pool in the public road in front of each locked gate and assess a fine each and every time the private landowners go "cross country" to travel around it. After a couple dozen holes I am sure more landowners would be willing to negotiate access to OUR landlocked public land.

 

•Apparently Weirs also failed to read the game regs, if he had he would know about mentor, youth and scout licenses...newsflash, they already exist. Mentor licenses are free and youth licenses are steeply discounted (even for non-residents). We don't need some Obombish welfare program to get more kids into the public tag drawing. I suspect many of these kids are just bonus point banks for their fathers anyway (kids are put in for bonus points each year and Daddy adds himself to the kids group application when the kid becomes a young adult with lots of bonus points they can share - the group application averaging rule needs to be changed but that is another issue).

 

•I also noticed the bill broke the tags into three categories....governor, sportsman...and ???. I suspect this was to make it more difficult for outside groups to challenge ownership of the entire tag pool in the future. I also found it interesting that the bill asked for AT LEAST a specific number of tags for each unit regardless of how many actual tags are approved for that unit by the Commission each year. This "make sure we get ours" mentality is further evidence of greed and proves their altruistic claims for conservation were a crock of bull.

 

I find Weirs suggestion that the opposition to this bill is just selfish or misinformed to be condescending. We don't need political puppets like him "saving us from ourselves". Us dumb Arizona residents recognize this bill was a way to worm away a valuable Arizona asset and a creative way to bypass the 10% cap on tags for non-residents and fatten the wallets of the big name guides and the groups and businesses that profit from them. I found this passage from your response "And for this reason I ultimately decided that the bill in its present form will not move forward" to be quite alarming. Okay dude, we got it, you and your cronies are going to lob another bag of puke over the fence at some point in the future...good luck with that (I hope it hits the top of the fence and bounces back at ya). You kicked the hive and the bees are angry, I suggest you quietly walk away and think twice before submitting any more self-serving trash. BTW - After reading Wiers response and some other members of Arizona Sportsman for Wildlife, it is clear which member helped him craft this rebuttal. I will not be patronizing his business any longer, I have other things to read in the bathroom.

 

Thanks to people like Amanda and the quiet contributors that work hard behind the scenes to keep all of us informed. We should view this as a fire drill and use this as motivation to be alert for future attacks on our hunting opportunity. My bumper has plenty of room for another sticker.

 

Ryan

 

Hellofa first post Ryan! Great!

[krp]

I think we have to accept that the anti's just received a gift victory with this attempted legislation, approved or not...

 

The rift created between the supposed mover and shakers that politically oppose them and the support base of the majority of Az sportsmen must have them dancing with glee... pointing, look at the fools.

 

If the legislation would have been successful, it'd created an easy judicial battleground to tie up 350 tags with the possibility of gaining control of those tags legally.

 

I truly believe we just experienced the biggest loss as Hunters in this state that has ever occurred, we survived the Nappy commission years and USO with some wounds... but this cuts deep and hopefully the fallout won't give victory to the enemy.

 

Kent

[stanley]

I not sure I agree that anti-hunters gained a victory and/or are dancing with glee? Seems to me that the majority of the average hunters in the state showed solidarity, and that is a good thing. Anti's didn't win anything here. The average hunter in AZ won. If the point is that Weiers might be voted out of office based on this goat rodeo, then maybe I understand your point.

 

Seems to me like he better try to win back the support of the 'average' hunter out there if he wants to keep his position. IMO, if he really wants to keep his position and continue to represent the hunters of this state then he should come on to boards like this one and 'make nice' with his constituents. It is apparent what power the internet boards/blogs have. He should proboably get on these boards and explain his position, listen, and then try to represent the average joe.

 

S.

[krp]

Agree or not... Weiers and SFW were given the mantel of political leaders against the anti's by support and funding of the other organizations, and de facto the hunting community. That support has irrevocably been removed from SFW and Weiers is teetering on the edge. During the interim of trying to find a humpty dumpty to put back on the wall, we are extremely vulnerable... and the anti's are extremely savy...

 

That's reality.

 

Kent

[CouesWhitetail]

Agree or not... Weiers and SFW were given the mantel of political leaders against the anti's by support and funding of the other organizations, and de facto the hunting community. That support has irrevocably been removed from SFW and Weiers is teetering on the edge. During the interim of trying to find a humpty dumpty to put back on the wall, we are extremely vulnerable... and the anti's are extremely savy...

 

That's reality.

 

Kent

 

 

Well said Kent.....

[.270]

maybe wiers has learned his lesson. but i don't think he can ever be trusted with much ever again. his district has to have a million people in it. several hundred thousand at least. there has to be at least one person with more concern for sportsmen who is more intelligent and talented than this guy. find him and elect him. o0t them, i doesn't have to be a guy for dang sure. the thing about a state rep is about all of em are pretty strange. doesn't pay much and it's a lotta work and you generally end up with someone who really wants to be a bigshot instead of someone who has true concern for the issues and their constituents. not in every case, but in a bunch of em. his condescending memo didn't help do much but fan the flames. as far as this being good for anti's and bad for us, i think it was a push at the worst. it did a lot to unite joe sportsman and wake folks up to what these jokers are up to. so maybe it was a good thing. i know the fact that this bill is apparantly dead is good thing. oersonally, i hope this joker get primaried and loses. Lark.

[runningbird]

I think, had the bill been snuck thru the damage would have much worse than what we have now. At least now we may have the opportunity to find out which organizations we should support and trust. I still want to hear the positions on this bill from the different organizations. So far I think only The Arizona Elk Society has come out and stated that they were not for it. And NO, not taking a stance on a defunct bill is not going to cut it. If a group wants to represent AZ sportsmen and women then they need to be up front and honest, no side stepping.

[TLH]

Stanley,

 

I know how you feel about the ADA--i took over for you on the youth camps and we did OK for two years--then Brian Waitman took over after me and he did the best he could.. The board was always concerned more about Kaibab than anything else and they did a great job north of the ditch but they needed to worry about the entire state--then they did start working on waterhole projects and they worked on the 3-Bar project too. All in all the ADA does a good job on projects but they have very little support at the youth camps and that is frustrating.

 

KRP is one of my biggest supporters of our youth camps and he is always there when we ask him to join us so i know he works hard.

 

I hope we all have learned something from this ordeal---and as for JW's memo he sent out?? well all i can hope for is that he was on pain killers and didn't know what he was writing!

[archerycrazy]

Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club has terminated its affiliation with AZSFW. We learned of HB 2072 Friday afternoon Jan. 6th. We immediately notified Chairman Woodhouse who was stunned. By the end of the day, we learned that no commisoner was aware, and the Department was also caught off guard. Most organizations were only provided concepual briefings without any of the details. YVRGC was never contacted prior to or after the bill was filed.

[elkaholic]

wow - BAMM ---- thanks for posting and clearing up on how/where the YVRGC stands and feels about bill 2072 and the azsfw

[.270]

are you guys sure this weiers guy's name is spelled right? i looks to me like there should be an "N" right in the middle of it. Lark.