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ATTENTION UNIT 23 LOVERS!

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1 hour ago, Wagges said:

Putting 1000 pound animals in the desert and expecting the native animals to thrive is insane. Quail and other small animals can't ground nest with no cover. All your bullshit about Co-op is always one sided, the CATTLE Associations way.  Whenever I see people advocating for cattle industry, it seems they are also those who financially benefit from their agreements . The largest group with the best lobbyists. Cattle in AZ is like putting a dinosaur in Phoenix and expecting that situation to work itself out.  Most states receive enough rain to compensate for this large of grazing, not AZ-not even close!

I really hope you don’t eat beef

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Thanks for your input.  The Neighbors of the Mogollon Rim are all hunters who seek to preserve the wildlife resources. The members have cabins in the area and have been there long before Mr. Hemovich bought the Bar X. 

 

That part about "members have cabins" could be the crux of the problem.....nobody ever wants to talk about human population taking away habitat.........just sayin!

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3 hours ago, Wagges said:

Putting 1000 pound animals in the desert and expecting the native animals to thrive is insane. Quail and other small animals can't ground nest with no cover. All your bullshit about Co-op is always one sided, the CATTLE Associations way.  Whenever I see people advocating for cattle industry, it seems they are also those who financially benefit from their agreements . The largest group with the best lobbyists. Cattle in AZ is like putting a dinosaur in Phoenix and expecting that situation to work itself out.  Most states receive enough rain to compensate for this large of grazing, not AZ-not even close!

Wow! Guess you put me in my place!

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6 hours ago, Wagges said:

In my opinion there should no longer be cattle on public land.  There would be natural water sources for our elk, deer, etc if cattle weren't overgrazed on our public lands for the last 75 years.  This crap will never change.  Forest service is the laziest group out there.  Just look at how they are letting the utv's destroy our forest.  Its all bullshit that wo'nt change. I am Native Arizonan of 52 years and have given up on Arizona Game and Fish and National Forest Services. Now I hunt other states. Hunting will be for the rich not for The average man or woman. What will game and fish do when they have nothing to sell, sell us camping permits?

Was sorry to read this post Wagges, your way off base concerning AZGFD, USFS and ranching. I’d like to invite you to join AMDO next Saturday, August 3, for a conservation project on the Two Bar Ranch near Roosevelt. You’ll not only be working along side of AMDO volunteers but with off duty AZGFD and USFS employees as well. These folks volunteer their time and efforts for the sake of Arizona’s wildlife

Are these agencies perfect? Of course not. Can they improve? Surely. If Sportsmen and Women want to have a say about how our public lands and wildlife are managed respectfully, we need to fully support these agencies. “Conservation is a Team Effort”.

With your comments in respect to Cattle, rotational grazing has been instituted for many years on public lands. AMDO actively pursues partnerships with the ranching community, they are as concerned about habitat and wildlife as any of us. Ranchers are out daily checking waters and monitoring habitat, they are our “Eyes and Ears” when it comes to wildlife conservation on public lands. If not for ranchers we certainly wouldn’t have the wildlife numbers we currently enjoy. I do hope you will consider joining us next Saturday, you’ll have a front row seat to see how ranchers, wildlife groups and government agencies work together for wildlife.

Jim Lawrence - AMDO 

jim@azmuledeer.org

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1 hour ago, Arizona Mule Deer Org said:

Was sorry to read this post Wagges, your way off base concerning AZGFD, USFS and ranching. I’d like to invite you to join AMDO next Saturday, August 3, for a conservation project on the Two Bar Ranch near Roosevelt. You’ll not only be working along side of AMDO volunteers but with off duty AZGFD and USFS employees as well. These folks volunteer their time and efforts for the sake of Arizona’s wildlife

Are these agencies perfect? Of course not. Can they improve? Surely. If Sportsmen and Women want to have a say about how our public lands and wildlife are managed respectfully, we need to fully support these agencies. “Conservation is a Team Effort”.

With your comments in respect to Cattle, rotational grazing has been instituted for many years on public lands. AMDO actively pursues partnerships with the ranching community, they are as concerned about habitat and wildlife as any of us. Ranchers are out daily checking waters and monitoring habitat, they are our “Eyes and Ears” when it comes to wildlife conservation on public lands. If not for ranchers we certainly wouldn’t have the wildlife numbers we currently enjoy. I do hope you will consider joining us next Saturday, you’ll have a front row seat to see how ranchers, wildlife groups and government agencies work together for wildlife.

Jim Lawrence - AMDO 

jim@azmuledeer.org

 

"With your comments in respect to Cattle, rotational grazing has been instituted for many years on public lands."

Not sure what that means exactly but I can tell you that when I hunted Horseshoe in Unit 29 in the 80's and 90's,  Piety Hill area in 33 and the last five years in the Arrastra Wilderness that cattle were always there. Maybe they just rotate the cattle themselves. It would be nice to see them in there for a year then no cattle at all for 2-3 years.

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Hello Jim 

I am sure you believe that the cattle ranchers care about our wildlife, but I feel this far from the truth. They care about profits and how much they have to pay for PUBLIC lease to make the money.  YOUR public lands are for sale, only to ranchers.  As a normal US Citizen you cannot lease the land unless you are a rancher.  They resent the public and are constantly trying to stop our access to our lands. They truly believe that the lease grants them rights that supersede our own. Your organization should spend your dollars in ways that only help native wildlife, not invasive species like Cattle, Burros, Horses. Your project at DATE CREEK Ranch helped cattle about 90% over Mule Deer, Javelina, Quail, and other native species. Last time I was there, the only animals that could drink at your drinkers were cattle, horse, and adult deer. As sportsmen, we want to see as much wildlife as possible, not privately owned livestock.

In my first post, I said that I that I have given up believing that anything will change.  I appreciate that employees that volunteer and I believe they want to make a difference and help.  These are not the same people who create policy.  Those employee's hands are tied when it comes to the decisions made that impact our public lands.  Those efforts are commendable, but my position remains the same.

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Yeah, not a big cattle fan myself.  The rotation in lots of places seems to be entirely too long.  I think the 2 can live side by side to an extent.  Cattle can, and do decimate areas pretty fast.

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5 hours ago, Arizona Mule Deer Org said:

Was sorry to read this post Wagges, your way off base concerning AZGFD, USFS and ranching. I’d like to invite you to join AMDO next Saturday, August 3, for a conservation project on the Two Bar Ranch near Roosevelt. You’ll not only be working along side of AMDO volunteers but with off duty AZGFD and USFS employees as well. These folks volunteer their time and efforts for the sake of Arizona’s wildlife

Are these agencies perfect? Of course not. Can they improve? Surely. If Sportsmen and Women want to have a say about how our public lands and wildlife are managed respectfully, we need to fully support these agencies. “Conservation is a Team Effort”.

With your comments in respect to Cattle, rotational grazing has been instituted for many years on public lands. AMDO actively pursues partnerships with the ranching community, they are as concerned about habitat and wildlife as any of us. Ranchers are out daily checking waters and monitoring habitat, they are our “Eyes and Ears” when it comes to wildlife conservation on public lands. If not for ranchers we certainly wouldn’t have the wildlife numbers we currently enjoy. I do hope you will consider joining us next Saturday, you’ll have a front row seat to see how ranchers, wildlife groups and government agencies work together for wildlife.

Jim Lawrence - AMDO 

jim@azmuledeer.org

Jim, from someone who grew up on a desert ranch and a long time hunter thank you for all you and the organization you represent do! If not for our hard work these uneducated people would have nothing to complain about!!!

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2 hours ago, Wagges said:

Hello Jim 

I am sure you believe that the cattle ranchers care about our wildlife, but I feel this far from the truth. They care about profits and how much they have to pay for PUBLIC lease to make the money.  YOUR public lands are for sale, only to ranchers.  As a normal US Citizen you cannot lease the land unless you are a rancher.  They resent the public and are constantly trying to stop our access to our lands. They truly believe that the lease grants them rights that supersede our own. Your organization should spend your dollars in ways that only help native wildlife, not invasive species like Cattle, Burros, Horses. Your project at DATE CREEK Ranch helped cattle about 90% over Mule Deer, Javelina, Quail, and other native species. Last time I was there, the only animals that could drink at your drinkers were cattle, horse, and adult deer. As sportsmen, we want to see as much wildlife as possible, not privately owned livestock.

In my first post, I said that I that I have given up believing that anything will change.  I appreciate that employees that volunteer and I believe they want to make a difference and help.  These are not the same people who create policy.  Those employee's hands are tied when it comes to the decisions made that impact our public lands.  Those efforts are commendable, but my position remains the same.

These ranchers you are so quick to condemn are the same folks hauling water for wildlife all summer to pastures where no cattle are in. These are the same folks who are out maintaining waters, modifying fences to be wildlife friendly and making range improvements. What exactly do you do for Arizona’s wildlife? The Date Creek Ranch project you mentioned saw AMDO volunteers installing 11 miles of water distribution lines, added 50,000 gallons of storage and added 9 new drinkers. I don’t remember you being there to help but correct me if I am wrong. We try to put cameras on as many of the waters we develop and have lots of photos from the Date Creek I’d be happy to share with you. Contact Stefan & Kimberly Wolff - owners of the Date Creek, they will enlighten you as to the benefits this project has had on wildlife. 

As you never responded to my invitation, I hope you will consider joining us. I’d like for you to see first hand how Sportsmen and Women are making a difference for Arizona’s struggling wildlife. How AMDO, AZGFD, USFS, Permittees, land owners, private businesses are working together for wildlife conservation. You’ll have to experience it to understand. 

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13 hours ago, Wagges said:

utv's destroy our forest.  Its all bullshit that wo'nt change. I am Native Arizonan of 52 years and have given up on Arizona Game and Fish and National Forest Services. Now I hunt other states.

Whats a UTV??? I am a 63 year AZ native and have hunted AZ, Utah, Colorado and Wyoming. AZ hunting is still pretty good in my book.

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3 hours ago, Wagges said:

Hello Jim 

I am sure you believe that the cattle ranchers care about our wildlife, but I feel this far from the truth. They care about profits and how much they have to pay for PUBLIC lease to make the money.  YOUR public lands are for sale, only to ranchers.  As a normal US Citizen you cannot lease the land unless you are a rancher.  They resent the public and are constantly trying to stop our access to our lands. They truly believe that the lease grants them rights that supersede our own. Your organization should spend your dollars in ways that only help native wildlife, not invasive species like Cattle, Burros, Horses. Your project at DATE CREEK Ranch helped cattle about 90% over Mule Deer, Javelina, Quail, and other native species. Last time I was there, the only animals that could drink at your drinkers were cattle, horse, and adult deer. As sportsmen, we want to see as much wildlife as possible, not privately owned livestock.

In my first post, I said that I that I have given up believing that anything will change.  I appreciate that employees that volunteer and I believe they want to make a difference and help.  These are not the same people who create policy.  Those employee's hands are tied when it comes to the decisions made that impact our public lands.  Those efforts are commendable, but my position remains the same.

A little antidotal note here. I have hunted southern AZ for Coues going on 50+ years. Deer numbers are down in S AZ and cattle grazing has been non existent for going on 2 decades. The F ing grass is so thick now days I get grass seeds in my trouser pockets and went to high top boots because all the crappy dried grass mulch got into my low top boots. We saw more and bigger deer when there were cattle, beat down cow paths and cooped grasses. Things got a little drier about 20 years ago and the oaks quit putting out a mast crop. Since then (no acorns on the oaks) deer a bit tougher to find and smaller and band tailed pigeons basically gone and not because of cows grazing. dang grass doin just fin in parts of S AZ, besides deer don't eat grass. Not sure about the under rim area but cows never seemed to hurt Coues numbers. Back to the under rim and BarX, OP stated studies from 70's and 450 cow calf units and reduction to what did he say 50 units? Did the discussion say now the ranch has permit for 130ish cow/calf units? So OP what is the number of unit increase the rancher is asking for now?

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20 hours ago, Wagges said:

Putting 1000 pound animals in the desert and expecting the native animals to thrive is insane. Quail and other small animals can't ground nest with no cover. All your bullshit about Co-op is always one sided, the CATTLE Associations way.  Whenever I see people advocating for cattle industry, it seems they are also those who financially benefit from their agreements . The largest group with the best lobbyists. Cattle in AZ is like putting a dinosaur in Phoenix and expecting that situation to work itself out.  Most states receive enough rain to compensate for this large of grazing, not AZ-not even close!

Well, you’re wrong.

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 How do you feel about a new program to allow the slaughter of wild horses and burros? That alone would improve the entire spectrum of wildlife here. They are invasive species and need to be culled for pet and human food.

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25 minutes ago, Ringer said:

 How do you feel about a new program to allow the slaughter of wild horses and burros? That alone would improve the entire spectrum of wildlife here. They are invasive species and need to be culled for pet and human food.

Yeah! Yippie! Yessss! Woohoo!

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It's always a bit surprising to see how much support the cattle ranchers get on this site. Based on what has been said in this thread, Bar X Ranch appears to be doing it the right way and I would love to see more ranches follow the same model. It's my experience that Bar X is more of the exception than the rule when it comes to the stewardship described, however. I am of the opinion that our public lands would be far better off without cattle on them, in the same way that they would be better without the donkeys and feral horses. The irony I have observed is that a lot of folks that support cattle on our lands have a polar opposite view on the donkeys and feral horses, though their impact on the land and the wildlife is identical. I've seen some of the most beautiful wilderness and backcountry I know around the state get turned into a near post-apocalyptical landscape as a result of irresponsible grazing and ranchers that reflect an attitude of entitlement instead. 

 

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