Champ and Crossbow Permit Proposed Changes

[NOTAGS]

28 minutes ago, Roofer Billy said:

Could not have written that better myself. .

If I only have one arm. Why would I need to renew my permit ? The injury is permanent. I'm not growing a new arm . No surgery , medicine or anything will change that. So why the heck would I need to go back every year to renew my permit? F- ing stupid morons.

My Dad's been waiting 17 months now. To get into a Arthritis Doctor. His last Doctors office was in Pinetop. He had to drive once a month there from Mesa. Now He goes without Medicine. He already has to live in constant pain. Trying to hunt is nearly impossible. His Crossbow was His way of being able to get out. Now He has sold everything. And will never hunt again. Hunting is what keeps Dad alive. It give Him purpose and something to look forward to. A actuall time and day . Opening morning 😀. Now what ??? 

 

 

Wasn’t your dad ready to kick any and every bodies arses a while back  when someone asked you for a fish picture?   You two gave out your address  … Same dad ? Are you two for real?

[trphyhntr]

46 minutes ago, Roofer Billy said:

Yup if a Crossbow is your only way of hunting. Why have a licence. Fuckkkk Arizona. Go hunt a different state. 

can still use a crossbow on general hunts. With no special permit. 

[Roosevelt Mark]

Bla  Bla Bla, 

Guy's talk about muzy restrictions in other states well that is a muzzle tag. No Cross bow tags in AZ only archery . . 

[Roofer Billy]

14 hours ago, NOTAGS said:

Wasn’t your dad ready to kick any and every bodies arses a while back  when someone asked you for a fish picture?   You two gave out your address  … Same dad ? Are you two for real?

Yup and We live at the same address. And just like we both said before. And I will say it again. 

If You or anyone else would like to come by, and have the same question and attitude . I myself or My Dad will more then happy to answer Your question. 

I didn't post this to be attacked. And I have both arms as well as my Dad . And His and mine work very well. He's older with arthritis and does live in pain. But can still handle business when needed. 

Hunting is very challenging at times and could literally take days. And many hours to complete. If Your able to even finish the hunt. In some cases for handy capped people. 

It only takes a few seconds to hand some trash talking wise guy his butt. So like I've said time and time again. If You ,or your Butt buddy or any of YOUR trash talking computer queens need a answer to that. Hit Me up. I would be more than happy to help you. And I have tons of popcorn for anyone who wants to come watch. 

So Yes please all You bitches that want to talk shoot every time someone post something on here. Please come give Me or Dad a visit. 

We can either be Freinds or take any route You choose. It's totally up to You. But if You choose to not be Freinds. Be prepared for a war. .

I don't come on here for butt holes like you to start some shoot. But if you need to continue. You know the address. Please come visit.

[knothead]

7 hours ago, trphyhntr said:

can still use a crossbow on general hunts. With no special permit. 

or hunt with a rifle in one of the fall hunts like most people did for years and years. 

[cactusjack]

Remember this all started when the OTC deer hunt went to a quota system.  First the out of state hunters were blamed for the seasons being closed early.  Then the crossbows. Who will be blamed next?  Just look at the posted OTC season, listing Dec and January dates on most Mule deer hunts is a waste of time.  The hoards of desperate hunters flood to the "best units", closing them in the first week, many times surpassing the quota by the time it can be closed.  Those units get moved into a draw, so the hoard moves on to the next "best units".  It was the Kaibab, then Unit 3A & C, Unit 11, Unit 17A, and last year Units 1 and 27.  I predict next year Units 5A&B, 6A, and 20A are next.  Just slowly tugging off the bandaid that needs to be ripped off.  

The Primitive Hunts are no longer primitive. The only way to save the OTC Deer hunt is to change the allowed archery equipment.    Long and recurve bows or atlatl only. No movable pins. No releases. Cedar arrows. 

You can still use your modern bows, in the HAM or General hunt or Archery Draw hunts.

Commissioner Buchanan has mentioned technology being a problem in Primitive Hunts it in the past several meetings.  

  

The same will happen with Muzzleloaders.  Only open sights, no sabots-round ball only, no inline.   

 

Before the new changes can be implemented, they have to be reviewed by the GRRC.  I believe the proposed changes will have a difficult time passing the sniff test. "The GRRC reviews the rulemaking to ensure that the rules are necessary, consistent with legislative intent, within the agency’s statutory authority, do not create an adverse impact on the public, and whether the benefits of the rule outweigh the costs."

There are several groups already pushing back.  The changes unduly effect the disabled hunting community. 

 

Now go on, lash out. Make all the negative and snarky comments, but be ready, change is coming.    

[jdown]

With all due respect - I'm still confused about how this unduly effects the disabled hunting community. All the same equipment is available (besides magnified scopes right?). Just requires a MD vs anyone with a pen. Is it more difficult to get that appt, I'm sure but I see my md annually, I would guess I could get the signature each year then if I had the need for it. Maybe I'm missing something. 

In terms of the units turning to draw - that is as much as a populous problem as anything in my book. The woods if full from April through Sept like never before.

In terms of who brought this up to the commission - I don't know but I do know I have talked to around a dozen different G&F LEOs in the last 3-4 years (most of the time at the expo when they are all there) and everyone has the same story/experience I do. Healthy looking men carrying xbows/airbows youth shooting game with xbows/airbows.. I have seen it multiple times myself and those guys are in the field 50X more than I am - it's a real issue that it was abused by many many people. It needs to be regulated and how they do it, that is on them and so far - it seems fair. It's all still available, just need to prove it vs 'sore shoulder' guy. And those of you on this site that have abused it or have seen friends/kids abuse it - feel free to chime in - lol. 

[cactusjack]

jdown, 

your doctor wouldn't be able to sign.  It will need to be a specialist.  A yearly visit to a PCP isnt unreasonably or typically difficult to schedule, but try to get into a specialist.  Especially next year, if everyone who currently has a CHAMP and Crossbow permit are trying to get in.  And lets think about people in rural areas. Do their areas have said specialists? 

The CHAMP permit will be permanent, but I think you still have to apply annually for the crossbow permit, even if you are missing an arm.   

The restrictions only apply to crossbows.  Air bows can still use a bipod or tripod and a magnified optic.  Compound bows can still use magnified optics and even monopods.  If you have an upper body strength or stability issue, that would allow you to use a crossbow, wouldn't that strength or stability issue make holding one up a problem also? You would be forced to get a Champ permit also.  

As to the abuse, nobody was ever cited or even investigated. Are there people that cheated or lied?  Probably.  Go after them. I spoke with several of the Commissioners, they didn't feel that it was a rampant as some made it out to be.  There are many allegations of abuse, but was it as wide spread as some claim?  There is no way of knowing. There isn't any data, other than anecdotal data. Anecdotal isn't science.   #6 in the Model.  

From the North American Conservation Model

1. Wildlife as public trust resources: 

   This principle states that all wildlife is held in trust by the government for the benefit of all citizens, not for private ownership or use. 

    
2. Elimination of markets for game: 

   This pillar ensures that commerce in dead wildlife is eliminated, which prevents the overexploitation of species for commercial gain and protects them from being treated as a commodity. 

    
3. Allocation of wildlife by law: 

   Wildlife is managed through established laws and regulations, such as hunting seasons and bag limits, ensuring fair distribution and preventing unregulated access. 

    
4. Wildlife can only be killed for a legitimate purpose: 

   Wildlife should be hunted for a valid, non-frivolous reason, such as sustenance or sport, and always through legal and ethical means. 

    
5. Wildlife is an international resource: 

   Recognizing that wildlife crosses borders, conservation efforts must be managed cooperatively across state and international boundaries to protect migratory species. 

    
6. Science is the basis for wildlife policy: 

   Wildlife management and conservation decisions are based on scientific research and data, allowing for effective management and the maintenance of healthy populations and ecosystems. 

    
7. Democracy of hunting: 

   Every citizen, regardless of wealth or social standing, has an equal opportunity under the law to participate in hunting and fishing, fostering a broad connection to conservation. 

Brian Rimzsa brought it to the Commission.  He represents Bowhunting in Arizona, a trophy hunting and record book organization.   

Arizona Game and Fish does not manage for trophy hunting. 

Arizona’s 7 core concepts of conservation

• Wildlife is Held in the Public Trust
• Regulated Commerce in Wildlife
• Hunting and Angling Laws are Created Through
  Public Process
• Hunting and Angling Opportunity for All
• Hunters and Anglers Fund Conservation
• Wildlife is an International Resource
• Science is the Basis for Wildlife Policy

Do the rules need to be changed.  I would say yes.  They let chiropractors sign, they are not medical doctors. Paring it back to the initial intent would be reasonable, but make the equipment requirements the same. 

The yearly expense to see a specialist plus the yearly fee to Game and Fish for a permit, when you have a disability that is permanent is unreasonable.  

Edited September 16 by cactusjack
added stability bipod tripod comment

[jdown]

8 minutes ago, cactusjack said:

 

As to the abuse, nobody was ever cited or even investigated. Are there people that cheated or lied?  Probably.  Go after them. I spoke with several of the Commissioners, they didn't feel that it was a rampant as some made it out to be.  There are many allegations of abuse, but was it as wide spread as some claim?  There is no way of knowing. There isn't any data, other than anecdotal data. Anecdotal isn't science.   #6 in the Model.  

 

Only thing I'd say - I think impossible to go after them - all hippa protected and nothing you can do since they were all legally following the lapse rule. Only thing they can do, is tighten the rules. 

Maybe the pendulum swings back a bit on the need for annual qualifications - who knows. What I do believe, is something had to happen to get back to the intent and mitigate some of the abuse. 

 

[Coues247]

Can anyone confirm if the only doctor allowed to sign off is a D.O. or Orthopedic specialist? Or do MD's count? The proposal showed D.O. and ortho only.

[cactusjack]

as approved, if you listen to the minutes, at 7:16:36 Restricting the qualified physicians to a Doctor of Osteopathy or Doctor of Medicine with the appropriate practice and or specialization to address applicants disability....

7:19:19  They added Primarily practice in Muscular Skeletal or Neuro Muscular disorders, diseases or conditions.  Not all DOs.  Not those who specialize in other fields.  

Age will not qualify you for a Crossbow permit.  Only medical disabilities. So getting old, doesnt count. 

Apparently they changed it prior to the meeting

Edited September 16 by cactusjack

[Coues247]

"Doctor of Medicine with the appropriate practice and or specialization to address applicants disability...."

Who the heck decides what that means? What's appropriate? And what counts as specialized?

[muledeerarea33?]

I must just have really good insurance. I got in to see an orthopedic last month (not related to getting a permit) with no referral and took about 3 days. I’ve seen them 4 times since.