Boquillas new rules / permit structure out

[.270]

Sounds like bo needs to apply for a bailout from obama. Lark

[HuntHarder]

So... we have a problem of too many elk on the ranch at a cost of X amount of dollars per head. So let's reduce access and charge a higher fee for the ones that are still willing to hunt the ranch? Seems counter productive. If the amount of people willing to hunt the ranch drops, so will the amount of elk being killed each year. You would think they would want as many cow hunters in there as possible to thin the herd. Instead, there will only be a few select cow elk hunters in there and higher end bull clients. So the overall # of elk harvested on the Bo should drop pretty significantly at a cost of X amount of dollars being factored in on the bottom line. Sounds like we are gonna need some depredation hunts on the BO to keep enough feed and water for their cattle to survive.

[muledeerarea33?]

The first attempt at a faux "land owner tag" in AZ? Hmmm? Could be a good case study for the real thing except they don't own the trust land. Hunting license is your permit to trust land. It's not the hunters fault or burden that they improved the trust land with ranch money. State trust is not public but every hunter who bought a hunting license and hippie who chose to buy the permit instead of a hunting license has a right to it.

[coueswt]

So I believe the gentleman that handled the ranch tags this year is an outfitter and they had a lot of hunters on the ranch this year. Did this change? How many of the access passes go to that outfitter? Can the rest of 10 handle the remaining tags, seems like quality will go way down on the other half. Seems shady and sad day for the average die hard trophy hunter.

[Jay Scott]

C. Cordova and coueswt,

 

I'm going to step in here and defend my friend and also bring some fact to this discussion. Lee Murphy is a guide and is the hunt manager for the Big Bo. Did you know that he doesn't even guide on the Big Bo? Why? Because he has so much integrity and character that he didn't want to create a conflict of interest. Did you know that he actually is an ally to sportsman and is constantly trying to talk his bosses into not locking the ranch up completely?

 

I can't sit back and watch Lee get drug thru the "mud". Lee has the utmost level of integrity and I stand behind his character 100%.

 

He is the best friend sportsman have in this conflict and if people knew what was happening behind the scenes the last person they would bury a hatchet in would be Lee.

 

If anyone wants to chat more you can reach me at jayscottoutdoors@gmail.com

 

I respect this site and understand how mad this new conflict makes people. Thanks

[SirRoyal]

Jay, Lee Murphy seems like a very upstanding guy. Very good to deal with!

Get things done kind of a guy!

So your saying he does not personally guide on the Big Bo or his whole company Exclusive Pursuit Outfitters does not guide the Big Bo?

[10sec72]

In regards to Lee Murphy .......this was my question.....So from my understanding there is no limit on the number of guides that can access the ranch during the hunt as long as they are hired by the hunter

 

 

Lee's answer ........Actually, there will be a limit on the amount of hunters that can go outfitted on the HD hunts to ensure DIY hunters have there opportunity. We will be posting more info on this this week.

Regards,

Lee Murphy

never met the guy but seems to open and honest

[coueswt]

I hope what you say is true Jay and there is no special treatment for anyone with these changes and access passes. Sure will make for a better hunting experience if you have the access pass with that few hunters.

 

C. Cordova and coueswt,

I'm going to step in here and defend my friend and also bring some fact to this discussion. Lee Murphy is a guide and is the hunt manager for the Big Bo. Did you know that he doesn't even guide on the Big Bo? Why? Because he has so much integrity and character that he didn't want to create a conflict of interest. Did you know that he actually is an ally to sportsman and is constantly trying to talk his bosses into not locking the ranch up completely?

I can't sit back and watch Lee get drug thru the "mud". Lee has the utmost level of integrity and I stand behind his character 100%.

He is the best friend sportsman have in this conflict and if people knew what was happening behind the scenes the last person they would bury a hatchet in would be Lee.

If anyone wants to chat more you can reach me at jayscottoutdoors@gmail.com

I respect this site and understand how mad this new conflict makes people. Thanks

[azelkhunter2]

Jay for the love of God DONT bring ANY FACTS into this it would ruin a perfectly good pity party....

[.270]

All that's fine and dandy. All the while tax paying Az residents with perfectly legal hunting licenses are having to pay to access state owned land. This ain't about the poor bo that was originally purchased by the tribe under extremely illegal circumstances with somewhere upward of $30 million while they're own tribal members were living in less than 3rd world conditions. This ain't about the poor cattle company with extremely deep pockets having to spend money on infrastructure that every rancher in the country has to do also. Or the poor cattle company paying the exhorbitant amount of 50 cents per acre to lease state land. This is about taxpayers being tired of being squeezed to hunt state land and not liking it. Quit trying to paint the cattle company as a poor down trodden bunch of guys that walk on water. It ain't about them. Really have a hard time wondering why folks can't understand that. Lark

[stillatmaxpoints]

Again i will just try to put forth information and facts they may be helpful to the people that would like to know about the ranch, the people who have no intention of letting the facts sink in are of course entitled to do so.

In the 1970's there were virtually no elk on the ranch. G&F is mandated by law to manage the wildlife in this state as long as they have access to do so, and they have never been denied access to do so on the ranch. They are supposed to manage the numbers of wildlife, just like cattle numbers are managed for carrying capacity. The G&F could have managed the numbers of elk in the last 30 years so that they did not impact the ranch to the extent that they have, but they did not do so.

 

Hunters also impact ranches. Anytime you you have heavy traffic on dirt roads, the dirt roads will require much more maintenance with increase of traffic on these dirt roads, and again it is all private road maintenance by the ranch. There are other impacts, but roads is a major one.

 

Lets get some facts out there about hunting and the hunt program. If you take the time to go to the website you will get most of your answers, but i will try and highlight some of it.

The ranch rules were implemented to create a place for good ethic's in hunting to be practiced and hopefully it would also create a more quality hunting experience, (more on that later) and to lessen any conflicts that may occur between the cattle operation and hunters.

 

There are no ranch sponsored guides or outfitters on this ranch. There was a incorrect comment earlier implying that Lee Murphy the hunt manager, who is also a outfitter may in some way benefit, completely untrue. He had several hunters in unit 10 last year and only hunted one hunter for antelope on on the ranch, so that no one would think there was a conflict of interest. Do not imply something if you don't know.

 

As far as the ones thinking we are locking hunters out when we need the hunters to manage the elk herds(mostly cow elk hunts) you need to research before you speak. Go to the website and the fee structure for 2016. The cow elk hunts are $50.00 for 2016 ten dollars cheaper than they were in 2015, There are no limits on the number of hunters that want o hunt the general hunts, only the high demand hunts.

 

High demand hunts Why?

Sure it will generate more income to help offset ranch expense, with less impact to the ranch in people numbers.

High demand hunts are of course just what it says, and means the rut hunts for early bull elk and antelope.

hunters that draw these hunts many have waited up to 20 plus years to get the tag and really want a quality hunt and hunting experience. You can not have a quality hunt if there are to many hunters in the field at the same time. Many many!!! hunters have told us they are fed up with the hunter opportunity that G&F promotes, you all know what i am talking about 500 or 600 hundred deer permits in a hunt unit and people everywhere.

We felt that if we limited the number of hunters on the HD hunts it would create a atmosphere for a much more quality hunt and hunting experience, and at the same time increase the age class of these animals so that the trophy quality would be better.

 

If you go to the website you will see that 60% of these HD hunts are reserved for DIY hunters, all of these permits are on a first come first serve basis. If the DIY hunters do not reserve all of the 60% allotted to them by a certain date(not sure what that date yet is)then if a hunter wants to go guided he may do so, if he did not get in on the guide or outfitters 40% allotted numbers.

 

We feel $500.00 is a fair price for a quality hunt in a quality hunting area with good trophy class animals.

In other states cow elk permits bring $500.00

[Doggy]

FYI, correct information concerning the Boquillas ranch

First i am not a employee of the ranch or hunt program, and i am not a outfitter. I have done business with the present lessee, and i was involved with the hunt program early on.

 

The ranch is right at two thirds private land and one third Arizona state trust lands. Arizona state trust lands are not public lands, you can go to the Arizona state land department web site and read there mandate, they are not multiple use lands like federal lands are(forest service BLM)

All of the improvements on these trust lands are built and maintained by the lessee and owned by the lessee, examples dirt stock tanks, metal water storage tanks, water troughs, pipelines, fence's etc. The water runoff that collects in the dirt stock tanks is owned by the state of Arizona, all of the pumped water(400 miles of pipeline on the Boquillas) is owned by the ranch, it is piped from a private well at considerable expense, again we are talking about state trust lands, on the private lands the ranch owns the grass, water, and all improvements.

Any water trough or metal storage tank on trust lands, the water is owned by the ranch. The Boquillas ranch pays the Arizona state land dept, approximately $130,000.00 per year for the grazing fee's, that is for the grass only, all other expenses on trust lands is paid for by the ranch.

All dirt roads on the ranch be it private or state trust lands are built and maintained by the ranch, there are no county maintained roads on the ranch.

As many of you know this is a dry arid part of Arizona, with no live streams, very few springs or seeps. There is a book written by Dave Brown former G&F employee about the history of wildlife in Arizona in the !800"s, the early explorers found little or no wildlife in this part of Arizona which now the Boquillas. Realistically there would not be a huntable population of any big game animal on the Boquillas if not for the millions of dollars spent on this ranch for water development and maintenance over the years.

The ranch is not anti wildlife or anti hunter, but the impact of hunting and wildlife, (mostly elk) is a huge cost on water and grass on private lands, and water on trust lands.

If you go back to say 1989 and look up the amount of permits for elk(i have)from 1989 until present you will see each year the permits were increased as the elk herd grew from a couple of hundred permits up to present where it is over 2000. Game and Fish grew the elk herd for hunter opportunity at the expense of the ranch. The ranch over the years has had to reduce its carrying capacity because of the increase of elk. This ranch is a very serious large cattle business operation, and the bottom line on the balance sheet is important.

Just so you know in 2002 one of the driest rainfall years on record, the Boquillas had to ship all of the cattle off the ranch, at a cost of a over a million dollars until it started raining again. The lessee left all of the pumped water on for the wildlife during that dry time when the cattle were off the ranch. The cost to just pump the water at the well is over $3000.00 per month.

 

 

Again i will just try to put forth information and facts they may be helpful to the people that would like to know about the ranch, the people who have no intention of letting the facts sink in are of course entitled to do so.

In the 1970's there were virtually no elk on the ranch. G&F is mandated by law to manage the wildlife in this state as long as they have access to do so, and they have never been denied access to do so on the ranch. They are supposed to manage the numbers of wildlife, just like cattle numbers are managed for carrying capacity. The G&F could have managed the numbers of elk in the last 30 years so that they did not impact the ranch to the extent that they have, but they did not do so.

 

Hunters also impact ranches. Anytime you you have heavy traffic on dirt roads, the dirt roads will require much more maintenance with increase of traffic on these dirt roads, and again it is all private road maintenance by the ranch. There are other impacts, but roads is a major one.

 

Lets get some facts out there about hunting and the hunt program. If you take the time to go to the website you will get most of your answers, but i will try and highlight some of it.

The ranch rules were implemented to create a place for good ethic's in hunting to be practiced and hopefully it would also create a more quality hunting experience, (more on that later) and to lessen any conflicts that may occur between the cattle operation and hunters.

 

There are no ranch sponsored guides or outfitters on this ranch. There was a incorrect comment earlier implying that Lee Murphy the hunt manager, who is also a outfitter may in some way benefit, completely untrue. He had several hunters in unit 10 last year and only hunted one hunter for antelope on on the ranch, so that no one would think there was a conflict of interest. Do not imply something if you don't know.

 

As far as the ones thinking we are locking hunters out when we need the hunters to manage the elk herds(mostly cow elk hunts) you need to research before you speak. Go to the website and the fee structure for 2016. The cow elk hunts are $50.00 for 2016 ten dollars cheaper than they were in 2015, There are no limits on the number of hunters that want o hunt the general hunts, only the high demand hunts.

 

High demand hunts Why?

Sure it will generate more income to help offset ranch expense, with less impact to the ranch in people numbers.

High demand hunts are of course just what it says, and means the rut hunts for early bull elk and antelope.

hunters that draw these hunts many have waited up to 20 plus years to get the tag and really want a quality hunt and hunting experience. You can not have a quality hunt if there are to many hunters in the field at the same time. Many many!!! hunters have told us they are fed up with the hunter opportunity that G&F promotes, you all know what i am talking about 500 or 600 hundred deer permits in a hunt unit and people everywhere.

We felt that if we limited the number of hunters on the HD hunts it would create a atmosphere for a much more quality hunt and hunting experience, and at the same time increase the age class of these animals so that the trophy quality would be better.

 

If you go to the website you will see that 60% of these HD hunts are reserved for DIY hunters, all of these permits are on a first come first serve basis. If the DIY hunters do not reserve all of the 60% allotted to them by a certain date(not sure what that date yet is)then if a hunter wants to go guided he may do so, if he did not get in on the guide or outfitters 40% allotted numbers.

 

We feel $500.00 is a fair price for a quality hunt in a quality hunting area with good trophy class animals.

In other states cow elk permits bring $500.00

 

Did you decide this early on?

 

Did I read that part wrong about

Lee? I thought Jay said he never Guided on the Bo?

 

I have hunted the Bo several times and swallowed the $60.00, but this is to much and if you think its over think again. They will keep raising the price until only the wealthy get to hunt it.

The Bo can stick it!! I'm done hunting there.

[stillatmaxpoints]

270 not every other ranch out there has 500,000 deeded acres. Every ranch i have owned or had something to do with. If the BLM or Forest Service control the majority of the land they dictate what happens on the land. If it is arizona trust lands they dictate what happens on the land. If the land is majority private land as the boquillas is then they dictate what happens on the land

[pirogue]

In regards to Lee Murphy .......this was my question.....So from my understanding there is no limit on the number of guides that can access the ranch during the hunt as long as they are hired by the hunter[/size]

 

 

Lee's answer ........Actually, there will be a limit on the amount of hunters that can go outfitted on the HD hunts to ensure DIY hunters have there opportunity. We will be posting more info on this this week.[/size]

 

Regards,

 

Lee Murphy

 

 

never met the guy but seems to open and honest

 

To ensure that DIY hunters have some access to the permits is great, but makes one wonder:

1) If permits are first come, first serve, why do you care if you only sell the permits to tag holders, which you should?

Why do you need to know upfront whether they have an outfitter? The rules with the "assist" should address guides.

2). By advising that guided and nonguided will now be allotted, it sounds like this is an afterthought, only brought on by unscrupulous outfitter(s) already hitting up the ranch to corner all the permits. I would like to know who they are so I never call them.

3). Was there ever any thought that all these new rules( and those still forthcoming, as referenced) would seem appropriate to be published before the application period?

[.270]

Maybe you guys oughta hafta pay to leave. Blah blah blah all you want. You're still charging tax paying license holders to access state owned land. And I thought you weren't involved with the bo? Just a concerned citizen. Now all the sudden it's "we". Nobody cares about how many elk were there in the 70's. That was true all over Az. The elk herd has increased more than anyone even knows in the last 40 years. You could hunt all season and never see an elk then. Even in unit 1 and 27. I know. I was there. There were very few elk in the 70's anywhere. That's a "fact" Best think up another fact. The tribe didn't buy the bo until 87. Well after the azgfd started managing the herd to get it where it is today. Tell another "fact". Then the place was in limbo for several years while the thieves involved were being prosecuted and sent to prison. Ain't no way "you" guys got there until sometime in the 90's. Quite awhile after the 70's you want to use as a fact. That's just the way it was. No unit had an abundance of elk. None. Unit 10 is not unique. Bring up another meaningless "fact". In other words, a lie. That the way "I" feel. Every rancher develops water that wildlife use. Cattle also use natural water that wildlife use. Every rancher runs pipelines, drills wells, pays to pump water, fixes roads. Quit cryin' about it. Every rancher endures drought, floods, fires, etc. You're not unique. Every rancher has to deal with the native flora and fauna that impedes on their imported livestock. Every one of em. You act like no other cow man has the same problems. But very few of em try get in the pockets of the joe nobodies that get lucky and get a tag. Nothing you say addresses the "fact" that tax paying citizens of the state of Arizona with valid hunting licenses and permits are being charged to use their land. I think trophy hunter is right. Max is a shill for bo. Lark