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55 pointsDon’t post much anymore but wanted to share. Was able to fill my OTC tag this morning on this 4 point muley.
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51 pointsI know this rut has been tough this year but wanted to share a successful harvest from my Az archery hunt. Day 11 it came together. Now onto sons youth deer hunt
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38 pointsGot to share youth deer camp with some good friends, with three youth tags in camp. My son had killed a spike last year and was looking for forked or bigger this year. One of the hunters was looking for his first deer and was first up to bat. Opening morning a buddy located a couple small bucks, including a shooter 2x2 with a small forky. They bedded them, and we watched them a few hours, waiting for them to get up and offer a shot. They finally did, and a first deer was harvested! The forky stuck around and even though he was bigger then a spike, my son decided he was too young and let him walk. Day two, another buddy showed us a new area. We worked a ridgeline glassing fingers on the ridges to the east and west. After a mile or so and the 3rd glassing spot, this guy was spotting working up a draw and feeding. We knew he was a shooter in an instant. He wasn’t in a hurry, but sure wasn’t gonna bed for us. He was moving towards a small saddle. He was at 650 yards, and we could maybe shave 200 yards getting to the next ridge but wouldn’t be able to get there before he was over the ridge and gone. It was a now or never type of thing, and the deer was broadside, slightly quartering to. I trust the gun and dope, and my son can shoot. We made sure he had a solid rest, dialed for distance and had him hold for a slight breeze. Kid was cool as a cucumber. At the sound of the shot, the deer hunched and I knew we had a hit, but he ran over the saddle so we couldn’t confirm. It was a long 30 minutes to hike down the one ridge and up the other but we found him about 20 yards from where he was the shot, piled against a tree just over the crest. Entrance was middle on onside shoulder, exit just behind off shoulder. His smile says it all and I couldn’t be prouder! The third hunter is still looking for something special, so send some big buck vibes his way this week!
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36 pointsMy dad waited 28 years to finally get an antelope tag and he made the most of it. We scouted a ton and had several target bucks but this buck was the target buck due to his character. Second morning of the hunt he connected with him. The buck had busted off several extra knobs and his double cutter on the right.
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36 pointsI managed to draw my third antelope hunt (my last) within my lifetime. This time was in Unit 1. I decided to get some professional help as I am not as good as I once was and no longer believe the other part about being good once as I ever was. Sam Dieringer took on the task of helping this old man. He done good! Since the area was close to home, I got out several times and found herds with decent bucks but only saw them from far away. Besides, my ability to judge antelope is about as good as it is for sheep – the mature animals all look awesome. Also, I bought a gong and did some distance shooting practice. My rifle is my Ruger M77 in .270 WIN that I got for graduation back in ’76, with a more recent upgrade on the stock and scope. It does not like the new modern ballistic tipped projectiles but shoots the cheapy Remington and Federal 130 grain bullets pretty good out to 250 yd or so. The scouting and shooting trips were fun and always involved spitting rain and cool temps, which was a welcomed relief. I found several herds each time. Once, I got to see two decent bucks sparing and then the one run off the challenger for several miles and then return to his harem. All pronghorn seemed to stick around the same area and cross the highway in the same location. I was able to find them the day before my hunt started and got Sam to come evaluate them. Neither were nearly as big as the one he thought we should target. The plan for opening morning was nailed down tight: meet at 5:20am and head up the mountain. I had a lot of trouble sleeping and finally gave up trying at 2:45am. Following morning coffee and the most important activity of the day, I was hurrying around getting everything ready. The first day for me is often a day of missed steps and preparation for day 2 – NOT THIS TIME. I was a little slow getting everything ready, so got to the meeting spot about 3 minutes late. I hate that! Sam had invited Wade to come spot for us. Lots of people driving around led to anxiety for me. Fortunately, Sam had found the big one in an area many times. It was away from the roads and next-to-impossible to glass except for one angle, where you see a tiny bit of the area. I would guess that the bow hunters had not been in there to disturb this herd, so they were much less wary. We crossed the fence (not without me getting hung up) and walked in about a half mile. I was trying to stay in Sam’s hip pocket but that skinny cowboy has long legs! I was breathing pretty heavy at the fifth stop and Sam tells me they are about 300 yd away. I could not see them with just my eyes but was confident in Sam’s assessment. He asked how far I could shoot and I told him 200 yd for sure and about 90% at 250 yd. That was not a good answer as there was almost no cover all the way to the shallow cut the herd was going up slowly. We backed out a bit and got behind a small Juniper bush. Unexpectedly, Sam said get ready to shoot – the buck was coming toward us. I guess curiosity had bested him. The sun was behind us and there was a slight breeze in our face -- perfect. I scrambled to get the bipod extended, load the gun, and get a tripod under my right arm to steady myself for the shot. Sam began grunting at the buck. He came into about 200 yd and stopped, looking directly at us. I was playing with the scope up at 15X which made it a bit tough to find the critter. Well, he got bored with us, turned broadside and started following the cut back to his girls. There were many more bushes down in that cut so I had to wait for an opening where I expected him to go. He entered the only 10 ft opening and slightly paused. I took a rather fast shot and we both thought I had hit the buck hard, but Sam felt it was a bit back based upon the reaction of the buck. The does took off up the cut and we could not see the buck following. Taking a bit of time to regroup, organize things, and just settle down, I managed to pack up for the follow-up. Curvature of the hill and numerous Junipers prevented us from seeing the buck right away, but it only took about fifty yards till we could see the big, ole white belly sticking out like a beacon. High Fives and jubilation followed. Walking up on the buck, there was no ground shrinkage or disappointment. The horns were symmetric, had heavy prongs and mass, along with good length. His face was not nearly as dark as the other bucks I had seen, which was probably due to his old age. The horns were truly magnificent! And the entry shot was perfect. However, he had been quartering away which put the exit holes on the opposite shoulder, which was toast. The bullet fragmented and produced several holes in the cape, but I have a great taxidermist. 😉 Sam went to get Wade and my tuck while I got to spend some quality time admiring my buck and to give thanks to the Lord Almighty for such a magnificent harvest. Following getting some needed hydration, I was in the shade for several, enjoyable minutes but the sun came out and it was scorching. I had a 40-yr old, heavy duty space blanket that I set up as a lean-to for shading the buck. It was about 40 yd to the nearest tree and there was no way to drag that heavy critter up there and I did not want to damage the hide. They finally got back and we took a bunch of pictures after Sam sewed the mouth shut to get the best pictures. Talk about PROs! They skinned and broke down the animal in less than an hour with getting no blood on themselves. They didn’t even puncture the guts with an errant poke like I had experienced on a previous hunt (inside joke for MH). I served as go-fer putting the meat on that space blanket and I had blood everywhere. These guys did not mess around and had the parts ready to pack out, including the tenderloins, heart and liver, really before they were cooled down. Those two just about ran down the hill to the trucks while I “Campbell Ambled” down. They beat me by 200 yd. They used the time to precisely measure the trophy, which turned out at 81.5”, just under the B&C minimum. Still, it is a tremendous trophy. Unit 1 typically does not produce huge Pronghorn. I chose not to give Sam a hard time about shooting the first one we saw as I realized how much work and effort had gone into this event. While they were busy measuring, I approached the fence and remembered the awkward time I had coming in. Since they were so busy, I belly crawled under just like the antelope do and managed to do so without them seeing, which would have resulted in abuse and a really hard time. On the way out, I found that SW Meats did not have their refrigerated trailer operating, yet. However, I did call a local friend who has a meat closet and I took the critter there to fully cool down. I left the head there too as I could not reach my taxidermist to find out what he wanted me to do. After I got back home, we talked and he said to freeze it. Turns out we have a small chest freezer that was empty and just waiting for the task – just needed turn on. I invited Sam and his wife for the Friday night special at Trailrider’s of prime rib and they took me up on it. Wade had departed for home, already. Sam and his wife picked up the head from my friend, which saved me the long trip to Alpine. They brought it to our Barndominum and I stuck it in the now-cold freezer. Sam is very quiet and I figured out why. His beautiful wife is quite social! We had the greatest time. I was still full from the Carne Asada Steak plate at Aliberto’s that I celebrated with when I had gotten back before lunch. Consequently, I settled for a bowl of Clam Chowder, which is my sister’s favorite Friday night meal – we go there often. It was totally an awesome evening and I even remembered to settle up with Sam for his magnificent service. What a great day but I was drained and went to bed about 7pm after posting some pics. The story took a little longer! Psalm 37:4 Take delight in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart.
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35 pointsMy 13 year old was lucky enough to get a Antelope Tag in unit 1 this year. I headed up Tuesday without my boy before the hunt to check the rifles at the range and then continuing up to unit 1. I ran into some issues with 2 of the 3 rifles I brought up. On Tuesday evening I found 4 bucks, 1 really nice shooter that I could see pushing 80" plus. These dang things are so hard to judge though, so I could be off. Always remembering what a old timer told me to use the eye ball and the ear to help feild judge them. This buck had good hookers and was definitely a double eared buck. He had about 19 does with him so I knew he had to be king. Wednesday I woke up early and headed out to another spot and spent the morning trying to locate a buck I seen in April. I did not find that buck, but finally turned one up This would be #2 buck and thinking he would push close to 80". He had about 5 does with him and the area had alot more cover for my boy for a stalk. This Wednesday I had located 23 bucks all over the unit. Out of the 23 bucks there was a bachelor herd of about 13 bucks all together. This bachlor herd was in a different area than the other bucks with does. I ran into another hunter that was trying to find a shooter. He had seen lots of bucks but he was wanting something bigger than what he had been seeing. This guy was a super good guy and was willing to show me some areas to help my boy tag out. In turn I let him know I found a decent shooter and could show him the area where this #1 buck was. We had about a 2 hours or so left of light so we headed over there and I ended up locating the buck just before dark. Thursday morning I headed home to pick up my boy after his game. We got back up the area around midnight. With what felt like a few hours of sleep we woke up and headed out Friday morning to #2 buck. With no luck locating him we moved to another area and turned up a heard with a good shooter, super thick but not really tall. We started the pursuit and bumped them over a hill about 500 yards away. We headed up were we last saw them and decided to sit and call with a antelope fawn call to see if the does would come in as I have had success with this before. In turn we called in a coyote at 389 yards. It was at that time to get some more confidence in my boys shooting. We dailed the rifle in and I told the boy to go ahead and let him have it. He shot and dropped the coyote in his tracks. As we went over to check on the shot placement of the coyote we glassed up the heard of Antelope down the hill from us about 1000 yards away. We moved closer and watched the buck from about 800 yards away chasining the does all over the flats. We decided to move in closer for the shot. As we worked our way down we got busted and the herd took off about another 1000 yards off. Again the buck was going crazy chasing the does all over as they settled in thier new spot. We backed out decided to head back to see if there was another angle we could approach them. On the way back we ran into a prairie rattler. We took some pics and let it be. Well the rain came down pretty hard on our hike out so we decided to head back and dry out. So we decided try that herd later on in the evening. After a few hours of getting back rested, we decided to hit that #2 buck spot again. It took a bit to find him but the does gave him away. At 350 yards away the herd was content feeding. We set up for the shot and then a doe started feeding just to the left and another right behind him. I told my boy to hold off on the shot. What seemed like forever the does walked away leaving the buck wide open. I gave the ok to shoot and he let off a shot. The buck and does all ran about 30 yards. The buck stopped while the does kept going another 50 yards stopping wondering why the buck wasn't catching up. It was at that moment he tipped over with high 5's and hugs. What a shot!!!! So proud of this kid!!! Also earlier that afternoon I recieved a text message from the other hunter that was going to after that #1 buck. He was able to locate the buck and was able to get on him. It was a awesome text message with epic picture of the downed buck. He thanked me for helping him finding a good buck. It was well deserved for sure. Rough taped my boys buck at 76". Stud and very pleased with my boys hunt.
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35 pointsMy 17 year old daughter got her first big game kill opening morning in unit 7. So proud of her! She did everything right, well composed, and a well placed single lethal shot. I feel a little guilty bragging on her when I know so many have been putting in for longer than she has been on this earth, but still grateful for her first, of hopefully several, hunting adventures. After today I think she has caught the fever!
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32 pointsBurned most of my vacation time in Alaska so had only 4 days to get it done. Covered in bulls everyday and this bull came on a string to some estrus cow calls. Shot him at 18 yards and again at 32. Magical morning in the elk woods. 30” dead pine he ran past after shots 👊
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32 points9 days of hard hunting in super dry conditions results in great archery buck. My son and I hunted hard for 9 days before getting an opportunity on this buck. Spot and stalk. Love chasing these things with my bow. By far the hardest antelope hunt of my life.
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31 pointsMy Sister-in-law shot a nice bull. Unfortunately I had other commitments (kids hunts) and couldn't get the time off to tag along. My brother would send me pics and videos every day of the hunt. They found a huge unique bull and they spent 4 days playing cat and mouse with it. They passed on a few nice bulls trying to be patient to find this unique bull. Getting close to the end of the hunt they found this awesome bull. They had alot of friends and family helping out on this once and lifetime hunt. She made a great shot! Wish I could have been there.
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31 pointsI was able to get my turkey on opening morning. Something different happened on this hunt that I have never seen or heard of before. After I shot my turkey he is flopping around on the ground when out of nowhere a bald eagle comes dive bombing out of the sky through the trees and lands on top of my dead turkey and starts attacking him with his talons and beak. I guess he wasn't bothered by the gunshot I had just used on the Tom. Anyways I had to run quickly to scare him off before my dead turkey flew away.
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29 pointsIt was a very slow start and hot. Maybe that’s normal - I don’t know. The last week was real good and there were nice bulls around. I passed this bull earlier in the hunt because of a couple others I’d seen. But on the last day - I figured I’d better shoot if I wanted to take an elk home with me. The other non resident from Oregon got a real monster. I met a lot of nice people here and made some new friends - stayed in AZ from 8/30 through the whole hunt. My elk is all on ice and I’ll be working my way home today. It was a really great hunting experience. Thanks to everyone who had given me tips and advice. I was hiking back to my truck one day and met Vincent - while he was cutting up his elk meat at his camp.
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28 pointsMy son drew his 2nd choice 12aw antlerless for his first deer hunt. Due to the weather we got a room in Kanab for the weekend. We had just enough time to drive through the unit Thursday before dark but didn't see any deer. We were joined by his cousin and my brother in law. Friday morning had mom spotting bucks all over the place up high. Between glassing and driving we saw 17 bucks and no does by lunch time. After lunch and some exploring we changed elevation and started seeing some does. We got busted on our first stalk but right before dark we spotted this doe moving through some oaks. Jase and I made a quick stalk and I stopped her with a bleat in a small opening. He made the most of it and shot her at 150yds off my tripod with his 300wsm. She jumped at the shot and ran out of sight. Everyone came down to help us track. Before we even found blood i glassed down the hill and saw an ear in the grass. I handed Jase the binos and told him to look where he last saw her. It took him a min but when he saw her he got the biggest smile I have ever seen. After pics we navigated the new etag app and got her gutted. While we were skinning her G&f stopped by and said he would tell the check station to wait for us. We got her checked in 15min late. It was nice of them to wait for us. Back home Saturday we got her cut up and Jase cooked us steaks for dinner. Great memories were made!
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27 pointsThe hunting community is truly filled with so many incredible people and it has afforded me the privilege of meeting so many people through random circumstances that have become some of my closest friends! Six years ago, I had filled my muzzleloader bull elk tag and stopped by a camp to inquire how they were doing. Met two gentlemen, and helped them kill a giant 366” bull the very next day. Bryan, originally from here and now residing in Colorado became a friend that I talk to a half dozen times a year swapping stories and talking about our next adventure. In April he reached out to me and mentioned his 71 year old buddy Gino had drawn an antelope tag after applying 27 years. He had a conflict so asked if I would help him on his hunt. I was thrilled for the opportunity, talked to Gino on the phone to understand his expectations, and told him I would meet him day before opener to put together a hit list. This is where it gets interesting…I found 3 bucks that would go between 74-78” and took lots of video of each. I showed Gino and we ranked them by his preference. 1st choice was a heavy old buck that had a busted back leg. Must have been hit by a car chasing does. He was in rough shape and I told Gino only way he will make it is if he could avoid the plentiful coyotes in the area. Opening morning as it became light I immediately saw 4 coyotes in the area and no buck. My suspicions were confirmed when I found a clean carcass with just the neck and head remaining in tact. Buck #1 IMG_6871.mov We quickly moved about 5 miles away to the location of buck #2. He was a beautiful buck with long cutters and good mass. We arrived just in time to witness a hunter anchoring him in his place 1/2 mile away. Buck #2 IMG_6897.mov We moved on confident that due to the rolling terrain where buck #3 was living he may have gone unnoticed. When we arrived it didn’t take long to find him with his 14 does. A deep drainage allowed us to sneak unnoticed into 200 yards and Gino anchored him! What an adrenaline filled morning and it ended with a buck of a lifetime for Gino and a new friendship for life! IMG_6938.mov
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27 points
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27 points
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26 pointsHad the incredible privilege of helping my buddy fulfill his lifelong dream of killing a Dall Sheep. He absolutely crushed it at 3 months from his 71st Bday. Best part was his son had a tag to and killed a giant 11 year old ram. Northern lights were spectacular!!!
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26 pointsOur family made plans this year to go bear hunt on my buddies ranch South of Colorado Springs the first week of October. My boy and I were sitting on a couple antelope points so with a little research I found a unit close by we could draw and had decent harvest 50-60%. The kicker was the very limited public access. I talked to the G&F officer and he said the unit does not produce many bucks over 70” and on public we better shoot the first bucks we see over their ears. I decided to go for it. My boy is a Sophomore in high school and I want to experience as much as I can in the field with him before he grows up. Just hunt….reasonable expectations….work hard to capitalize on the opportunity. Oh, we also could only hunt opening day 😬. Fortunately, we were there a couple days before opener so I spent two days putting miles on the tires and boots looking at every piece of available ground, walking to every high nob I could to get every angle I could to not miss anything….this is where it got crazy. I could not believe my eyes as I found not one but three bucks over 75” one of which would go easily over 80”. Was I dreaming?! Nope I filmed all them….watched them over two hours each of the two days before season. I was so anxious the night before opener I could barely sleep. Opening day arrived and we put together a team of 6 of us to try and locate our top two bucks. As it broke light the hunters started rolling in, and they kept coming. Where are the bucks? I could not find them. Guys were now pursuing does, shots fired!!! Were they dead? Wait, we found buck number two…my buddies are watching him from 1300 yards away. I am still 3 miles away desperately glassing and moving trying to find buck 1. I am passing a couple small bucks as I can’t get him out of my mind….i edge around a large bowl to avoid being skylined and catch movement 800 yards away. I throw up the glass…..it’s HIM! I call my buddy who was about to take my boy after buck 2 and get them headed to me. They arrive 10 minutes later and I tell them how to approach. I am watching them belly crawl cactus to cactus. I range them..906…I range the herd 740. They still can’t see them bedded. Another 10 yards on their bellies…they see them. My buddy sets up the Bogg to get him above the 18” grass and he locks the gun in. A doe sees them and stands….he stands!! BOOM! The buck runs 40 yards and stops…I see blood on his side…BOOM!! He’s down!! I can’t believe it! I literally run for almost 750 yards and tackle my son! We are in tears! We stand over him in disbelief! Bucks this big are not supposed to be here said the expert! Hunters were everywhere, yet we out worked them! We take dozens of pictures! My buddy texts us….buck number 2 is still there! Time to go. We quickly gut him and carry him a couple hundred yards to an access road we can drive to. We load him and off to buck number 2. My buddy and I head in. Topography and brush allow us to cut the first 700 yards quickly, then it is 400 yards on our knees. We are almost out of cover…wind is howling 15-20 so we agree that 400 yards is the max I will shoot. We get to 285 and set up the Bogg to clear the brush. I lock my gun in and ease up to shoot. A doe sees us and starts moving. He follows her and they are running. My buddy ranges….370. I dial and tell him I’m taking the running shot. I swing with the buck and when I’m about 4’ in front I squeeze it off and he cartwheels!! Buck 2 is dead. I am in disbelief! We came out for an opportunity hunt in a subpar unit and kill two giant bucks. We get pictures, gut him and haul him to the road. We butcher back at the ranch and hit the road for home early this morning. I still have not taped them. I am quite certain my buck is between 77-80 and Max’s buck is low 80’s. His buck is over 15”, heaviest mass I have ever seen and cutters are 10” up beams. Truly unbelievable!!! I don’t think we could ever top this experience again…but we sure will try!! Sorry for the long read but it was to incredible to leave any details out. Scouting video buck #1 IMG_7420.mov Scouting video buck 2 IMG_7415.mov Max’s buck #1 My buck #2 Our bucks!!
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25 pointsGot it done before the storm came in today. Found a rut fest mid morning and the action was hot. Daughter got it done with 1 shot from 25 SST at 360 yds. Hunter was there helping, it’s hard to believe he’s nearly grown. Seems like yesterday he was following me around these same hills begging for snacks. This one got me a feeling a little sentimental.
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25 pointsWent over to NM and got the OTC turkey tags... gobblers everywhere! Set up a hen decoy and called this Tom in on a string from the top of a ridge. Shot him at 25 yds. 10.5 " beard.
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25 pointsIn April 2024, I was fortunate to draw an off-range oryx tag for March 2025. I’ve had a whirlwind year since drawing and timing couldn’t have been better for the hunt. With that said, we encountered severe winds with no sign of letting up, which made things challenging. With the wind gusts, everything was bedded. Due to the flat terrain, glassing for extended periods was unproductive. We would glass and go, glass and go, constantly moving. The wind gusts were so brutal that any tracks on the ground were erased, making it easier to gauge a fresh track. So we changed plans and drove roads looking to cut tracks which we eventually did. We found a group of three at about 400 yards and they had us pegged. This happened twice more with the ranges increasing each time. They eventually had enough of us and bolted. Fast-forward to the late evening, and we were able to find the same group again at 1000 yards. They had picked up another oryx, and they were now four, with only one being unbroken. A long stalk later and I had my oryx. Five minutes later, it was pitch dark. Good luck to everyone on the upcoming NM draw!
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24 pointsMy 14-year-old son, Ryder, got it done on Sunday morning during his youth antlerless elk hunt. He and I stalked and bumped the herd of 20 or so that she was in for nearly 2 hours and 1.5 miles through the forest before he dropped to a prone position and shot through a thicket while they were trying to get away again and hit this girl in both lungs with his .308 Weatherby using a 165 grain Nosler Accubond, in what was likely his last chance at them that morning. I couldn't be more proud of him if I tried! Now we'll let the meat age for a few weeks, then butcher it up and head on out to our father-and-son deer hunt on the 24th. I can hardly wait! Special thanks to my 8-year-old son, Gatlin, for tagging along!
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24 points
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24 pointsGot the only hit I cared about! My boy has his first elk tag, a junior hunt!
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23 pointsThis past weekend was Jacob's last youth elk hunt. Any antlerless elk is the mark. We were camped with a great group of folks and saw elk every day. Unfortunately, they were all too far away and moving fast, or there was the one cow who ran across the road in front of us and kept on trucking. We finally got into a shootable group Saturday night; however, they were being pursued by another group of hunters on the other side of the valley. As much as I wanted it to work out for him, he says "All these young kids filling their first tags is a great thing. I have a lifetime of chasing elk in front of me." He's wise beyond his years, that's for sure. We woke up yesterday morning with the intention of relocating the rest of the herd from Saturday night. A good friend was with us this time. We found the bull and a lone cow in an area that we couldn't hunt, but watched their movement. Figuring on where they were going, we hatched a plan. Jacob took off and staged himself while we kept an eye out from our hilltop. Jacob has been wanting to do more solo hunting. Who am I to say no considering how much I was turkey and pheasant hunting on my own by the time I was his age. I trust him explicitly to stay calm and know how to react, even when there is no cell service. Will took over guiding him and they formulated a solid plan. I was texting Jacob that I can't see the elk and have no clue where they are. I was about to suggest that he work his way back to the truck. That's when it happened. We heard a series of shots ring out in rapid sucession. I gave it a few minutes and started texting Jacob. Nothing. No service. That's when I saw him in the opening. He walked out to where he could give me hand signals. Even from that far away, I could see his excitement and read his reactions. He'd done it! He filled his last youth elk tag on the last morning of the time we had to hunt. He did it on his own, too. We (mostly Will) gave him general guidance on how to approach the situation and Jacob took off to find success. As he told us, he was weaving through the thick junipers and, as he popped out around one, there was the cow standing broadside at 10 yards. Jacob jumped in to help field dress his trophy, realizing he needs to learn. I was sitting back beaming with pride at the young man he's become. Selfless, hard working, altruistic, compassionate, determined, and building integrity. I already know how badly I will miss these days, but I also know how little I will have to worry in less than a year. For now, though, its time to regroup and get ready for his upcoming last youth deer hunt this coming weekend. Sideways pics on my phone drive me nuts. Sorry!
